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Original Olive Pattern Designer

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Author	Topic: Original Olive Pattern Designer
bascall Posts: 1629 Registered: Nov 99	posted 06-24-2008 08:24 PM Does anyone know who designed the Olive pattern that is so familiar to coin silver collectors, or who is given credit for first introducing it? There is someone that seems like a good candidate to me, but let's see if anyone has the "right answer?" [This message has been edited by bascall (edited 06-24-2008).] IP: Logged
wev Moderator Posts: 4126 Registered: Apr 99	posted 06-24-2008 08:38 PM Do you mean who actually invented it or who, in the United States, first appropriated the design and called it their own? IP: Logged
bascall Posts: 1629 Registered: Nov 99	posted 06-24-2008 08:46 PM In my narrow mindedness, it would be the American who first claimed it, but naturally the complete answer with all the possibilities is best. IP: Logged
wev Moderator Posts: 4126 Registered: Apr 99	posted 06-24-2008 08:54 PM Well, Hyde & Goodrich, imitating their French imports, were offering olive pattern wares by 1823 at least. IP: Logged
ellabee Posts: 306 Registered: Dec 2007	posted 06-25-2008 12:31 PM wev, any chance for an image of those 1823 H&G Olive tongs you referred to in another thread? I'd be interested to see how closely the pattern resembles the 1840s versions. That look is my favorite of all the pattern styles out there. If I could snap my fingers and have custom-made flatware, I'd want an Olive-style pattern, heavy-weight, with serving pieces geared to modern needs. IP: Logged
wev Moderator Posts: 4126 Registered: Apr 99	posted 06-25-2008 07:45 PM A very simple, early form. IP: Logged
ellabee Posts: 306 Registered: Dec 2007	posted 06-26-2008 12:01 PM Thanks, wev! That is a most appealing, simple Olive. You were right about the detail on the claws. The Dominick & Haff ice and sugar tongs here (1884) have just those same ends, very realistic. Truthfully, they creep me out a bit; I'd like them better if they were more stylized. If I can get the batteries to charge (may have to get a new charger), I'll supply a pic of a salt spoon marked 'Wm. F. Ladd' (1828-45?) in an Olive variation that I haven't seen elsewhere. Will be interested to hear others' thoughts on other producers of early 'Olive' pieces. IP: Logged
ahwt Posts: 2364 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 06-26-2008 04:26 PM Could someone provide a link to the other discussion of the early Olive pattern examples. Thanks, Art IP: Logged
ellabee Posts: 306 Registered: Dec 2007	posted 06-26-2008 09:13 PM Hyde & Goodrich: quote: I have a pair of sugar tongs in olive pattern with the most detailed claw ends I have ever seen. They are marked 'Hyde & Goodrich' incuse on each arm. The interesting bit is that they are also scratch marked '2 oz/61 dwt/1823' which would, if it is to be believed, indicate a very early date for this pattern. [This message has been edited by ellabee (edited 06-26-2008).] IP: Logged
wev Moderator Posts: 4126 Registered: Apr 99	posted 06-26-2008 10:26 PM That should have read "incised on each arm." [This message has been edited by wev (edited 06-26-2008).] IP: Logged
ahwt Posts: 2364 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 06-26-2008 11:34 PM Thanks ellabee that is an interesting thread and pair of tongs. IP: Logged
bascall Posts: 1629 Registered: Nov 99	posted 06-27-2008 05:07 PM My guess was Michael Gibney's Patent number: D59, Issue date: Jul 10, 1846. He lays claim to the emblishments in particular. [This message has been edited by bascall (edited 06-28-2008).] IP: Logged
wev Moderator Posts: 4126 Registered: Apr 99	posted 06-27-2008 05:25 PM Reminds me of the guy who patented the peanut butter and jelly sandwich a few years back. IP: Logged
Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 Registered: May 99	posted 06-28-2008 06:29 PM I don't think that incised 1823 is a date; I'd need more proof to believe that claw-ended olive tongs were made that early. I'm willing to be convinced, but I'd be more inclined to see those as significantly later in H&G's history, like the 1850s. IP: Logged
ellabee Posts: 306 Registered: Dec 2007	posted 06-29-2008 11:20 AM Gibney! I'm so glad to have a name to put to the Olive version shown above. It's similar to the version made by Gorham, which I've called to myself the "light chain" version (for the decoration at the bottom). What I think of when someone mentions the Olive pattern, though, is this one, which for discussion purposes we could call the 'leafy' version: It's found marked with the names of many retailers, in coin, sterling, and silverplate. I've also seen examples that have what I'd thought of as maker's marks (e.g., the Sharp marks of Bailey & Co.). Was this a version made by one firm and sold to others? I've seen several sellers attributing it to William Gale. IP: Logged
ellabee Posts: 306 Registered: Dec 2007	posted 06-29-2008 11:45 AM The Gibney-patented version is identical to the one identified as Tuscan in Noel Turner's book, and here in a thread on Olive (The Olive Standard (1850)) from the defunct Collecting Place Settings forum. The shape of the ends of pieces in the "standard" (leafy) version of Olive varies from pointed, as in the example pictured in my post above, to rounded, as in the images at the top of the Collecting Place Settings thread. IP: Logged
ellabee Posts: 306 Registered: Dec 2007	posted 06-29-2008 02:18 PM The Olive family of patterns appeals greatly, and this thread has been a stimulus to organize a lot of random notes and images. No doubt there are many variants beyond these, but here's a shot at an initial classification: Patterns named 'Olive' by their designers/makers: 1. Gibney-patented 1846, produced (patented?) as 'Tuscan' soon thereafter by Wm. Gale, and later by Whiting. Rounded end. 2. Standard, "leafy" version 1850s, assumed never patented. Definitely produced by Gale entities, Bailey & Co. (Sharp), and ...? Versions in coin, sterling, and silverplate. Shape varies from pointed oval to rounded oval. 3. Gorham 1865 ("light chain"): big, drippy three-part top leaf, long bottom leaf ending in pendant beads; pointed end. Olive "family" patterns: 1. Early French imports / H&G copies 2. Louis XIV - pat. 1847, John Moore 3. "Grapes" - pat. 1850, ___? examples from a Southern coin silver seller w/maker marks from Baltimore and Boston. 4. Empire - pat. 1857, John Polhamus? 5. Waterlily - Vanderslice (firm operated 1857 onward) 6. unnamed - pat. 1859, Philo Gilbert Fitting into the family somewhere is this variant: It's a master salt spoon with the maker's mark for Wm F Ladd (1832-46?) in a rectangle punch, and also incised 'sterling'. Awfully early for sterling, might have been added later by retailer. IP: Logged
ahwt Posts: 2364 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 07-24-2008 02:23 PM Wev's olive pattern by Hyde and Goodrich is shown under the completed auctions section of eBay at numbers 260262564156, 250270435261 and 260262564127. I suspect that they were made by Wood and Hughes. IP: Logged
bascall Posts: 1629 Registered: Nov 99	posted 08-20-2008 05:41 AM Here's an example of the 1846 Peanut Butter and Jelly, uh, I mean, Michael Gibney patented pattern. IP: Logged
Trefid Posts: 96 Registered: Nov 99	posted 06-26-2009 05:17 AM IP: Logged
bascall Posts: 1629 Registered: Nov 99	posted 06-26-2009 01:36 PM Nice to see all these similar patterns together with many names. Thank you! IP: Logged
Trefid Posts: 96 Registered: Nov 99	posted 07-09-2009 04:39 AM Sorry to disappoint you, bascall, but the names in quotes are my own--not any I've found in the literature. I have to call them something so I can identify them. IP: Logged
bascall Posts: 1629 Registered: Nov 99	posted 07-09-2009 10:16 AM Ah well, your names will work. You may have set the standard. IP: Logged
Trefid Posts: 96 Registered: Nov 99	posted 10-26-2010 08:02 PM There's also a Newell Harding-marked "leafy olive" (I all it the Boston OLIVE) variant with extra leaves on the middle sides. Fairly rare, I think. I'm always suspicious of anything marked with Harding's backstamp, because his firm used it as a retail mark as well as a maker's mark. A lot of Knowles & Ladd-produced silver is attributed to Harding's firm. IP: Logged
vathek Posts: 966 Registered: Jun 99	posted 05-12-2017 11:20 AM This morning I picked up a set of unmarked coin spoons in an olive variant pattern. This has let me to this post and it's the one labeled 'corn ear' and also unmarked. Since this is an old post I'm wondering if anyone has since run across this pattern or have seen it listed by another name? IP: Logged
vathek Posts: 966 Registered: Jun 99	posted 05-12-2017 12:28 PM In re: to Wev's post above showing the patent from Gibney the set also included a master butter knife with an "1846 patent" stamp and identical to the Gibney illustration but signed N E Crittenden. IP: Logged
ahwt Posts: 2364 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 06-03-2023 06:42 PM These are forks in the Olive pattern that were retailed by Braverman and Levy. They used a variation of their own design as I have not found this pattern elsewhere. Or perhaps I just missed it. I do not know who made these forks. IP: Logged
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11558 Registered: Apr 93	posted 06-04-2023 05:21 PM RichardT posted 06-04-2023 05:04 PM in the New Members Forum quote: These forks were made by Vanderslice of San Francisco in the company's Olive variant known as "Waterlily". Here's a Waterlily gravy ladle. And here's a detail of the reverse: The marks from left to right are: V&Co, the maker; Geo C. Shreve & Co., the retailer; and S.F.CAL, the place. The raised L on the last mark is indicative of Vanderslice's earlier work. [This message has been edited by Scott Martin (edited 06-04-2023).] IP: Logged
ahwt Posts: 2364 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 06-05-2023 04:33 PM Thanks for that information Scott. Vanderslice would have been the maker of these forks and they have the raised L in the CAL mark. Vanderslice may have stamped all the marking on these Braverman and Levy forks. It is interesting how a manufacturer/retailer in the same city with another retailer sold the same products. Today I have several friends that used to sell products in a store but had to stop as the manufacturer stated selling the same thing online. IP: Logged
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11558 Registered: Apr 93	posted 06-05-2023 04:40 PM Not me. All *RichardT* IP: Logged
ahwt Posts: 2364 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 07-14-2023 10:10 PM This is another pattern that I think would fall within the heading of Olive pattern variations. These spoons had two different retailers, first Goldsmith and then second C. G. Barnes. I do not know who the manufacturer was. IP: Logged

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