|
A GLOSSARY of MILLED BANDS
|
|
| How to Post Photos |
REGISTER (click here)
|
|
A GLOSSARY of MILLED BANDS
|
|
| How to Post Photos |
REGISTER (click here)
|
|
 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 American Silver before sterling
 Etice
|
 SSFFriend: Email This Page to Someone! |
next newest topic | next oldest topic |
| Author | Topic: Etice |
|
bascall Posts: 1629 |
posted 01-30-2009 11:27 AM
  
Would someone please give me the definition of the term etice? The context for the word was a 1761 North Carolina woman's will bequest, "my silver etice in a black shagreen case." [This message has been edited by bascall (edited 01-30-2009).] IP: Logged |
|
agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 01-30-2009 12:07 PM
A lovely word but hasn't made it to my dictionary. Could it perhaps be a misspelling resulting from mispronunciation or a misreading of etui? IP: Logged |
|
bascall Posts: 1629 |
posted 01-30-2009 12:48 PM
agphile, thank you. Your idea does sound good. Apparently there was an error in transcribing the word or something like that. IP: Logged |
|
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 01-30-2009 01:45 PM
The only problem with that is that the shagreen case is the etui, and this is supposed to be a silver object in it. Either it is an obsolete term or a misreading of someone's archaic script by someone unfamiliar with the forms. Spelling in those days often varied considerably as well. Googling the term brings up a variety of sites in which it is used - in Portugese, Romanian, and some other unrecognizable language. The translators do a poor job, but the term seems to bear no relation to any physical object (being "ethics" in Romanian, and something in Portugese you don't want to know about, obviously mistranslated [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 01-30-2009).] IP: Logged |
|
FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 01-30-2009 01:59 PM
Swarter, I question you with great hesitancy since you're usually spot on, but in my experience etui is very often used for the silver case that holds all of a lady's implements, and may itself in turn have either a firm or soft case - shagreen or chamois respectively, often. See for example this one shown by the National Park Service. The transcription error of etice for etui would seem an obvious and easy one. I've spent a lot of time doing and reviewing such transcriptions, have seen that sort of mistake often - and probably even made it occasionally! The further back in time you go the harder the job becomes usually, but even a 1760s document can be challenging.... [This message has been edited by FWG (edited 01-30-2009).] IP: Logged |
|
bascall Posts: 1629 |
posted 01-30-2009 04:06 PM
FWG, it is great to be able to see an example of the etui even if I didn't recognize what it was in the first place. It fits in with the lady's other bequests perfectly. IP: Logged |
|
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 01-30-2009 08:23 PM
FWG may well be right - a bit of explanation may be in order here as to why I did not interpret it his way - the definition of "shagreen," often used too loosely, is the problem. Originally shagreen was a type of leather; it was later replaced by more durable rayskin and sharkskins. In modern usage at least, a distinction is usually made between shagreen and fish skin, with the former bringing the higher price. Etuis containing ladies implements (sewing or other) or scientific, drawing, and/or mathematical instruments invariably have (or originally had) an applied shagreen (polished ray skin), or less commonly, fish skin (polished or unpolished sharkskin) covering that is attached directly to the etui itself (the etui in the photograph may have lost its covering). The shagreen covered ones (which are the type most frequently seen) are usually stained green or red between the polished denticles. Sharkskin usually is dyed black, and most often used on wood or pasteboard cases, while rayskin is more often seen on earlier wood or pasteboard and later metal objects such as 17th and early 18th Century telescopes, microscopes, etuis, etc. I have seen or handled many of the scientific, drawing, and mathematical etuis, although I don't own one myself. An etui may or may not be further protected in a pouch such as the one shown for travel, but these rarely have survived. Shagreen was very expensive, but I suppose it is possible that "shagreen" could have been used more loosely, and there could have been a black sharkskin traveling case for the one mentioned, but shagreen (as defined here) is unlikely. As an aside, the original "sandpapers" were rayskin (coarse) and sharkskin (fine). As the sharp denticles wore down, they became polished and acquired the familiar disklike configuration - the decorative properties of this worn material when dyed was recognized, and became the decorative shagreen and fish skin we see on period antiques (although sharkskin most often is used unpolished). [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 01-30-2009).] IP: Logged |
|
FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 01-31-2009 08:50 AM
That makes good sense, and I have seen a number of metal cases covered in shagreen too. But I've also seen a fair number in bare metal; as you say, these might have lost their covering, but at least some appear to be as original. And I've seen at least one with a hard shagreen-covered fitted box, much like a jeweler's box. We should hunt up some good illustrations of shagreen, as many visitors probably won't be familiar with the different materials. Unfortunately I don't think I have any good examples, but I'll think on it. Do you think sharkskin is dyed black? I always assumed it was just left natural, but really don't know.... IP: Logged |
|
agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 01-31-2009 09:53 AM
 This is the case of a silver traveling spoon set of ca.1710 which I assume is in the polished fashion to which Swarter refers. And this is a quick snap of a small case for some flatware from the 1760s – unpolished and “bobbled”, it is what I would have called shagreen. Whether technically correct or not, I think it would also have been called shagreen at the time. I hope these pictures do relate to the interesting explanation by Swarter even though they are not of etuis! A couple of further points. I don’t think a silver etui would have been covered in shagreen that hid the metal. Most silver etuis of the period that I have seen have engraved or other decoration that is clearly meant to be seen. And as far as language usage at the time is concerned, I felt it made sense to suggest etui which would have been used for a decorative container, typically of sewing items, whereas the word case would have been used for the protective container in which the etui could be stored for safety. IP: Logged |
|
argentum1 Posts: 602 |
posted 01-31-2009 10:46 AM
Bascall Would it be possible to see the bequest as written? Comparing the same letter c or u to another c or u, when used in the same manner, could possible identify whether the the letter is actually a c or u. Etui versus etice. IP: Logged |
|
bascall Posts: 1629 |
posted 01-31-2009 11:42 AM
Sorry, no I don't have the original script. If you'd like to look at the same thing I have just google my silver etice. I do have the book, but while looking up the word etice, the book showed up on google too. [This message has been edited by bascall (edited 01-31-2009).] IP: Logged |
|
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 01-31-2009 01:30 PM
Sharkskin is covered with small denticles - sharply pointed bony scales - all lying slightly raised and pointed in the same direction (pointing to the rear on the shark). When you run your hand over them, they are rough in one direction and smooth in the other direction.* Agphile's flatware case is sharkskin, as evidenced by the small, densely packed denticles, but they are round and smooth, having been polished down, and thus could be called shagreen, despite the black coloring (which may be natural or dyed, depending on the dried skin color of the shark). Rayskin has larger denticles with more exposed skin between them, is always polished, and is usually dyed green, but sometimes red. My use of "polished" is in the sense of fine abrasion, not waxing - Agphile's travelling spoon cass looks (from the photograph at least) more like leather. Originally shagreen was skin from Asiatic wild asses that made a tough, pebbly surfaced leather, but fell out of favor, being replaced by shark and rayskin. It does seem counterintuitive to cover silver, but one would expect engraved initials to be found on the broader originally exposed surface, rather than on the silver top or bottom of the etui, where they are usually found. I have seen examples of metal objects where the shagreen has been chipped, exposing the metal below, but that is not to say that every one made was originally covered. I will soon photograph and post (or have posted - my ISP trashed my home page without a by-your-leave, and I haven't yet replaced it) an 18th Century example of a small telescope made of black-stained ivory and polished green rayskin over a pasteboard tube, next to its cylindrical sharkskin covered wooden case. *Denticles are hydrofuge structures, used to reduce friction between the surface of the shark and the water passing over the surface, by trapping a layer of still water between them, so water is passing over water. They point in the direction of flow so as not to introduce turbulence that would create drag. IP: Logged |
|
agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 01-31-2009 02:02 PM
Thanks, Swarter. I am reassured that the case I thought was shagreen can indeed be called that. And I think you are right that the other case is actually leather. I probably didn’t read your original post carefully enough and allowed myself to be carried away by the thought that it might be something else! This thread has prompted me to browse my library for examples of etuis – not as easy as it might sound because they may be catalogued under other names, e.g. lancet-case (for a medical one) or necessaire. A wide variety of materials – silver, gold, tortoiseshell, mother of pearl, enamel and, of course, shagreen. I only came across one example, in gold, where an accompanying case was also illustrated which isn’t a lot of evidence, but I think etui (or etuis in the plural as I shall explain) remains the most likely interpretation of etice. Having googled the will I am minded to suggest that it was dictated and one or two words misheard. For example, the bundles of “letters and Mr Aliens” must surely have been “letters and miscellaneous”. Might there not have been a pair of etuis kept in a single case, perhaps one for sewing paraphernalia and one for other items? If the word etui was unfamiliar to the person taking the dictation, etuis could well have emerged as etice. IP: Logged |
|
FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 01-31-2009 04:45 PM
One would have to go to the New Hanover County, NC, courthouse to see the original will - and hope they still have them, and accessible. In general those early 20th-century transcriptions are good, but even in working with some of the best I've found mistakes. It's inevitable in transcribing. Or it could be a relic of dictation as agphile suggests. Or of a copyist, from the original document to a manuscript copy that was later transcribed to publish, also quite common. IP: Logged |
|
Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 01-31-2009 11:21 PM
Wild asiatic asses! Sharkskin sandpaper! Mr Aliens = miscellaneous! I'm enjoying this thread more than I can say. IP: Logged |
|
agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 02-01-2009 08:23 AM
An illustration of a silver etui with its shagreen case can be found at IP: Logged |
|
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 02-01-2009 02:06 PM
Here is the promised rayskin image: 18th Century telescope by John Dollond. Green rayskin and red leather on pasteboard with stained ivory. Tubular wooden case with sharkskin covering. Length as shown 3 1/2" (9 cm). IP: Logged |
|
agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 02-01-2009 03:11 PM
That's a marvelous item as well as a great example of the various skins side by side. You've got me looking at cases and their coverings with new interest as well as more understanding. Thanks IP: Logged |
|
agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 02-05-2009 04:21 PM
I can’t resist coming back to how “etice” came to appear in the will and thus in Bascall’s question that started this off. It seems possible that the good lady might actually have said something like “tweeze” or “etweese” which are archaic English words for a small case, derived from “etui”, and seem to date back to the 17th century. Our modern word “tweezers” is derived from “tweeze” describing the case in which they were kept. If the good lady was using a rather old-fashioned pronunciation rather than the actual French word that I think was more commonly used by the mid 18th century, it might well have been rendered as “etice”. However, simple transcription error remains the most likely explanation, but I could fancy reviving the word tweeze in place of etui. IP: Logged |
All times are ET | next newest topic | next oldest topic |
  |
|
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a
|
1. Public Silver Forums (open Free membership) - anyone with a valid e-mail address may register. Once you have received your Silver Salon Forum password, and then if you abide by the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines, you may start a thread or post a reply in the New Members' Forum. New Members who show a continued willingness to participate, to completely read and abide by the Guidelines will be allowed to post to the Member Public Forums. 2. Private Silver Salon Forums (invitational or $ donation membership) - The Private Silver Salon Forums require registration and special authorization to view, search, start a thread or to post a reply. Special authorization can be obtained in one of several ways: by Invitation; Annual $ Donation; or via Special Limited Membership. For more details click here (under development). 3. Administrative/Special Private Forums (special membership required) - These forums are reserved for special subjects or administrative discussion. These forums are not open to the public and require special authorization to view or post. |
|
copyright © 1993 - 2022
SM Publications
All Rights Reserved. Legal & Privacy Notices |
).
