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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 American Silver before sterling
 coin silver cups
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| Author | Topic: coin silver cups |
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argentum1 Posts: 602 |
posted 02-28-2009 06:06 PM
  
West coast auction site Final bid was quite high. Two mugs by A.G. Welles and six unsigned. The engraving was to me quite recent and not all that great. Whatever that animal in the shield was supposed to be looked more like Snoopy's little bird friend than anything else. Am I just grumping again or on to something? I meant to add the Eagle? looks more like a constipated sparrow. IP: Logged |
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jersey Posts: 1203 |
posted 02-28-2009 06:41 PM
Hi! For what's it's worth....Que Je Surmonte was the motto of the Chancellor of Shieldhill in County Lanark, Scotland. Jersey IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 03-01-2009 01:11 PM
The animal in the shield is supposed to be a lion rampant, and the crest an eagle displayed. The engraving is too crude to be contemporary, as you suspected. Sets of this many beakers are quite rare; such beakers are often passed of as julep cups and sets as camp cups, each of which command higher prices. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 03-02-2009).] IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 03-03-2009 05:33 PM
The coat of arms on the cups is a bit folksy, but many coats of arms represented early folk art. I do not have any interesting ones on silver, but the one below on china certainly has a folk art side to it. This one has something to do with Moore and Hogg being impaled together. The coat of arms on the silver beakers was the logo for Chancellor records of Philadelphia - the early studio for Fabian and Frankie Avalon. That may have generated interest in the set and as Swarter pointed out how often do sets of eight beakers come on the market. All in all I think they were a good buy. IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 03-04-2009 06:10 PM
Argentum, I am right there with you on this, my first reaction to the image was that is about the worst engraving I have ever seen. I do not think this is folksy nor old, it is just badly done. It is as though some one self taught had reached a point of confidence (only a few slips) so that he could cut the whole with a degree of coherence BUT there is no skill in his cutting and there is no finish to his strokes (look at the lettering), i.e. he is a one horse engraver and worst of all there is NO ability to lay out the original sketch, thus the sick bird and cat. So, until I see something proven to be engraved at that time just like this I will bet this is a recent job. I have seen poor engraving from this time but to me it has a feel and style that is far from this. Because I have a huge respect for Swarters experience and ahwt's eye and I am judging this from a technical point of view I have to admit that I have no evidence and nothing to compare it to. Add to that that the beakers are what they should be and I may be way off base. The only other clue might be the lack of appropriate wear to the engraving... Really I would be most interested to see similar engraving from this period if any one knows of some. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 03-04-2009 06:31 PM
quote: IP: Logged |
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agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 03-04-2009 06:59 PM
Who could not agree that the engraving that started this thread is modern and inept enough to offer some amusement value? (Sorry for this next bit which I posted before realizing that Jersey had got there already) However, it seems to be an attempt to reproduce a genuine coat of arms. The crest, arms and motto together appear to be those Chancellor of Shieldhill, Lanark, Scotland. I imagine they might have been, or might still be used by a member of that family in the USA? IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 03-04-2009 09:38 PM
I have always thought of folk art as art work prepared by one who did not have academic training in the field of their work. In this case the engraver obviously did not have training in engraving silver. But whether this engraving is delight to an individual’s senses is personal – I can readily see that one trained in engraving would be horrified by this attempt. This may not be the same reaction that an unskilled person would have as they might simply enjoy the chuckle on seeing it or they might have some interest in the subsequent use of this coat of arms as a logo. I have no idea when the engraving was done – I do not think that it was done in the early 1800’s for the simply reason that folk art engraving was not a tradition in that time period. Engraving that I am familiar with was all done by engravers that exhibited some degree of formal training. Folk art oil and water color portrait paintings were common in the early 1800’s and in their time were much admired by the families that commissioned the work even if the likenesses presented bore little resemblance to their family. IP: Logged |
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agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 03-05-2009 12:54 PM
I’m sorry if my earlier comment gave the impression of being dismissive of folk art which can be just as appealing and interesting as high status art made for the elite, though we might enjoy the two extremes in slightly different ways. My reasons for thinking the engraving on the mugs is relatively modern are partly to do with the style and partly because of the technique. I suspect some mechanical assistance for the engraving tools. My few examples of “folksy” decorative engraving on old silver reveal greater difficulty in executing a neat curve, for example. The engraver of the mugs must either have had an existing engraving on silver to attempt to copy or have had access to information on the conventions for representing heraldic colours on silver. He or she gets them right for the Chancellor arms: the dotted background to the lion rampant for or (gold) and the upright lines behind the mullets for gules (red). Even the cross-hatching on the lion is more or less right for sable (black). I find our attitudes to engraving on silver interesting. Original engraving, whether professional or folksy, would generally be seen as a plus. Later engraving, for me at least, is acceptable as part of the history of the item. But recent engraving on an old piece is an act of vandalism (even though in the course of time it too becomes part of the history). Perhaps it is because we know our ancestors saw nothing wrong in “improving” a piece of old silver but expect our contemporaries to have a different outlook. IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 03-06-2009 05:37 PM
I would just like to add that most "old" later additions are still cut with care and skill, most "new" additions look awful for one reason or another... badly cut, terrible lay-out and proportions or worst of all an awful inscription in the wrong place usually to large. Yes I am a snob when it comes to screwing up old silver. Thank you Swarter for the Minott tankard but that is to good to be compared to the sad thing at the top of the page! IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 05-01-2016 08:53 PM
By chance I came across a reference to the Moore impaling Hogg plates that I posted above sometime ago. This reference refers to them as Chinese Export Armorial Plates, Arms of More impaling Hog Circa 1735. Moore became More and Hogg became Hog, but they are the same plates even if the names I had were slightly off. The interesting thing about these plates is that William Hog, a member of this family, invented what is known today as an "overdraft". My understanding is that William Hog was a merchant who talked his bank into lending him money for short terms to meet payroll and other expenses of his business. My wife collects Chinese export items and found these at a flea market from a dealer who insisted they were from Japan. I used the word ""invented" above, but recent US Supreme Court decisions have severely limited business method patents so even though it was a real advancement and could be thought of an invention it most likely would not be patentable today. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 05-27-2016 03:43 PM
No matter how one might like to think of these as folk art engraved arms which is an oxymoron since if one is armigerous and thus able to afford solid silver cups, then one is not going to have their valuable and respected arms engraved by a childish amateur in the way the arms are portrayed on these cups, I very strongly doubt they are cotemporaneous or done with the owners knowledge or approval. I know I would not stand for such a thing regarding my own arms on anything on which I had them portrayed. I take pride in my own arms. [This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 05-27-2016).] IP: Logged |
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