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Coffin end ladle

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Author	Topic: Coffin end ladle
ahwt Posts: 2334 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 02-14-2010 12:31 AM The coffin end ladle shown here has a mark that I believe are the letters PT. Initially, I thought the first letter was R, but under a loupe it appears to me that the R is actually P. I think there is a deposit of silver forming a spurious front leg of the P to make it look like an R. This deposit runs on to cross the T. The only American PT that I could find was Peter Targee. Peter Targee did use PT as his mark, however the mark I have seen is in cursive not block. Does anyone know if this is Peter's mark or some other silversmith with the same initials. This ladle is over sixteen inches long and is surprising well balanced. Also, I got to this thread via the SM Publications web site and not the direct link that I normally used. Is this a permanent change? IP: Logged
ahwt Posts: 2334 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 02-14-2010 01:09 AM The mark above is for John and Peter Targee and it may be that after John died Peter cut the die down to just include his initials. IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 02-14-2010 01:28 PM IMO there is no doubt that the first letter is an R, albeit crudely cut - the inner edge of the leg is a smooth curve and there is a distinct serif on the end. There is also a crack in the die that connects the two letters, but is unrelated to them. Off hand I do not know who might have made it. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 02-26-2010).] IP: Logged
ahwt Posts: 2334 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 02-14-2010 01:42 PM Thanks Swarter. There is Richard Thomas from Philadelphia (c1802-1808)listed in Brix. His mark is not in any of my books. Has anyone seen a mark for Thomas? IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 02-14-2010 05:27 PM The vertical positioning of the owner's initial suggests (but does not prove) a mid-Atlantic origin, but be aware that coffin-handles are extremely rare from this part of the country. They do not seem to have achieved any degree of popularity there. IP: Logged
vathek Posts: 966 Registered: Jun 99	posted 02-24-2010 08:07 PM I have a small salt spoon with a very similar mark and apparently the same maker. It always struck me as odd but I believe the tail on the R is supposed to be there. IP: Logged
ahwt Posts: 2334 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 02-25-2010 08:38 AM Thanks Vathek. It could be that RT replaced the broken die with a new one. Any indication from your spoon as to what part of the country it came from. IP: Logged
vathek Posts: 966 Registered: Jun 99	posted 02-26-2010 08:05 AM Not that I could tell, it's actually just a very plain stamped spoon. Although it doesn't show that well in my pic, the tail of the R does have that same added on look as your stamp. [This message has been edited by vathek (edited 02-26-2010).] IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 02-26-2010 01:03 PM I don't wish to be a wet blanket, but in this case I don't think it is possible to make any connection between the two RT marks based on letter form alone - the first is cut by hand and rather crude, while the second has a more finished look, probably the product of a professional die maker. IP: Logged
ahwt Posts: 2334 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 02-27-2010 08:34 AM I agree with you Swarter that more evidence is needed before one can conclude that the two RTs are the same person. On the other hand the relative quality of the two dies suggests to me Vathek's silversmith was successful enough to hire a skilled die maker and not that the RT on the coffin ladle is a different silversmith. The latter RT may well have become financially successful making these elegant and handsome coffin ladles and decided to replace the broken die with a professionally made die. IP: Logged
Brent Posts: 1507 Registered: May 99	posted 02-27-2010 09:55 AM I don't have an answer for this mystery, but I can add that the shape of the coffin reminds me of a Connecticut piece I have by Thomas Kinne. My piece also has a cross-ways monogram like yours, which as Swarter says is more common in Philadelphia and points south, but does occur elsewhere. So, there is no reason to rule out a possible New England origin. For what it's worth, Kinne's mark is also crudely cut. IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 02-27-2010 01:02 PM I didn't mention it earlier, as it is a thin lead at best, but I have seen a few coffin handles from Massachusetts with single upright initials as well, so it might be worth looking there too. A customer could have requested any sort of engraving to taste or to match other family silver, so in the absence of other information (such as matching engraving on other related silver), one cannot rely on that at all. I have a drawer full of unmarked silver awaiting a match - so far it has happened only once. IP: Logged
Fitzhugh Posts: 136 Registered: Jan 2002	posted 03-23-2010 12:45 PM I believe the last "RT" mark has been attributed to Robert Titus, though the first might be his mark as well. IP: Logged
ahwt Posts: 2334 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 03-23-2010 01:53 PM Caldwell shows the R.T. mark on a spoon found in Knoxville, TN and notes that a Robert Titus advertised in Knoxville, TN as a painter and watchmaker. Also he notes that a Robert Titus worked in Petersburg Virginia. Also a Robert Titus shows up as one who “Died, At Hernando, Miss., on Sunday afternoon, Mr. Robert TITUS, silversmith, recently of Memphis and formerly of Boston, Mass. American Eagle, Friday, 9/22/1843”. Here there is a clear reference to his profession as a silversmith, but of course no picture is given as to his mark, if any. Patricia Kane does not mention any Robert Titus in her book . I think the RT on the coffin ladle is still a mystery. IP: Logged

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