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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 American Silver before sterling
 Tiffany, Young, & Ellis tongs
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| Author | Topic: Tiffany, Young, & Ellis tongs |
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jimmyr Posts: 4 |
posted 02-01-2006 09:23 AM
  
[26-0886] I have recently acquired a large (10 inches, about 7 troy oz)set of tongs with the "Tiffany, Young, & Ellis" mark. Research would indicate these are from the early 1840,s. Can I assume these are coin silver?One side is 4 prined dinner fork while the other is a narrow flat with holes. Does any one know what the specific use is for this tong ? I can find nothing comparable to it in my research. Sorry no photo but need new camera. Thanks jim IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 02-01-2006 10:59 AM
You need to post some clear photos for definitive help, and also please let us know about your interest in learning about this particular set of tongs as that will help us in answering your questions. In general, I would think the tongs may more likely be early 1850s than 1840s since Tiffany, Young and Ellis was essentially a just a stationery store in 1841 that slowly moved into retailing silver made by other companies. They were not silversmiths themselves. Usually you will find additional markings on these things that are the marks of the silversmiths or silver companies who actually made them. Young and Ellis retired and left the store in 1853 so that would be the latest likely date. IP: Logged |
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William Hood Posts: 271 |
posted 02-01-2006 03:02 PM
From your description I gather that your tongs are of the scissors type. Usually such tongs consisted of a fork and spoon combination and were for salad. An example of this type is pictured in Tiffany Silver Flatware, 1845-1905: When Dining Was an Art (p. 34, Figs. 35a and b. Your combination of fork and flat blade is much more unusual and sounds like asparagus tongs, although they may have been intended for multiple uses. Tiffany, Young and Ellis was in existence from 1841 to 1853, and the silver they retailed beginning around 1845 was of coin quality. IP: Logged |
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jersey Posts: 1203 |
posted 02-01-2006 06:31 PM
Hi! Welcome to the forum. Perhaps you can draw a sketch of the piece for us. The description reminds me of Sardine tongs except for the size, most of them are much shorter. Sandwich or Ice tongs also come to mind. Obviously their uses for today can run the gammit, though we all like to know their original purpose. Jersey IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 02-01-2006 11:34 PM
    The top tongs are marked E. Jaccard & Co. and are 10 7/8" long. They may be like your pair. This style also came with a bowl instead of the flat plate and one of this type is shown in the book on Nineteenth Century Natchez-Made Silver. The authors of this book note that Natchez people born in the nineteenth century said these tongs (the one with a fork and spoon) were used for serving fried chicken. I am still looking for this type. In both types the plate or bowl extends beyond the end of the fork and I suppose that this would make it easier to slide that portion under the food. The next tongs are marked Knapp and Leslie and an identical pair is shown in the Natchez book. These tongs are 9 �" long. The authors of this book simply refer to them as serving tongs. With the holes in the shovel like side they work well with foods that are mixed with some liquid. The next tongs are marked Bacon and Smith and are traditionally called an asparagus server. Asparagus tongs seem to come with a band fixed around the two arms. The functional purpose of this is that it stops one from pulling the arms too far apart. The bands are attractive and perhaps that feature was the only reason they were added. They also seem to usually have a lip extending down a short distant from what I would call the top arm. This works well to stop the asparagus from slipping out. The last tongs are marked Kirk & Son 1015 and we use them for fried chicken. They are 11 �" long and with the bowl and talons work well with a variety of foods. These servers or tongs really do add charm to dining. They also add a bit of fascination or wondering as to what they were used for in the nineteenth century and who designed them. IP: Logged |
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jimmyr Posts: 4 |
posted 02-02-2006 08:01 AM
The photo of the top tong is it except for a slight variation in the holes on the flat side. So I guess TY&E must have imported them and put their mark on them. There are no other marks except for pat number. My research tells me about 1845 would be a close estimate. Thank you all for your help. Jim IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 02-02-2006 10:52 AM
What did you find in your research that led you the 1845 date? IP: Logged |
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jimmyr Posts: 4 |
posted 02-02-2006 11:54 AM
I arrived at that date after considering the available info I looked at. The date is by no means etched in concrete but I firmly believe I am within 2-3 years. T,F, & E came into being 1841. They started using sterling marks about 1851 with makers name. Since this is coin silver, with no makers mark,it falls somewhere in between. They first started selling coin silver items in about 1845, according to an early catalog. That's my story and I am sticking to it. Thanks again. Jim IP: Logged |
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Richard Kurtzman Moderator Posts: 768 |
posted 02-02-2006 12:30 PM
jimmyr, "There are no other marks except for pat number." Would you please tell us what the pat number is? Thank you. IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 02-02-2006 12:40 PM
I believe that the mark E. Jaccard & Co was started no later than 1855 and most likely not before 1853. Eugene took in A.S. Mermod in 1853 as a partner and his cousin D.C. Jaccard as a partner in 1855. Before 1853 there was only Eugene and no company. You mentioned that there is a patent number on your tongs. None appear on the Jaccard tongs. Have you looked this up on the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office website? The date that Jaccard made or sold these tongs does not determine when your tongs were made or sold. The later date for the St. Louis tongs may simply be a reflection of how long it took for new wares to become available in Missouri or that this style was in production for a long time period. IP: Logged |
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William Hood Posts: 271 |
posted 02-02-2006 02:32 PM
jimmyr: You said you think the tongs must be imported. A heavy duty imposed on imported silver in 1842 virtually wiped out imports. I know of no silverware imported by Tiffany in its early years. Moreover, it should have had the marks of its country of origin and would not have had a patent no., this last being a peculiarity of the USA. As Richard has asked, please tell us what the pat. no. is. IP: Logged |
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jimmyr Posts: 4 |
posted 02-03-2006 08:16 AM
We may be on to something with the pat numbers. Upon closer inspection of the tongs, I found these pat numbers: 134, and 1347, 1 on either side of the tongs. If these are correct, this would date the piece to the 1830's. However, we know TY&E did not come into being until 1841. Perhaps they bought out some old stock and stamped their name on it. Nothing like a good mystery ! Jim IP: Logged |
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Richard Kurtzman Moderator Posts: 768 |
posted 02-03-2006 11:31 AM
This is starting to sound like Ghengis Kahn's Toothbrush. Get a new camera. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 02-16-2006 12:09 AM
Jimmyr has not respected & abided by the Guidelines therefore their membership has been terminated. IP: Logged |
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argentum1 Posts: 602 |
posted 02-16-2006 08:08 AM
What guideline did 'jimmyr' not follow? I looked but did not find anything that appeared to be a violation of the guidelines. Maybe I have overlooked something. I ask as I would not want to repeat his error. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 02-16-2006 11:00 AM
Jimmyr is using the SSF memeber's good will ito line his pockets. This was business research by jimmyr. IP: Logged |
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