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 American Silver before sterling
 Is this cup by Wood & Hughes? Is it coin?
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| Author | Topic: Is this cup by Wood & Hughes? Is it coin? |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 02-23-2006 03:26 PM
  
[26-0920] Alas, spoons are no longer enough to sate me. I found myself buying a cup (mug?). Is this the way to addiction and doom? I bought it from that internet auction site. It was listed under silverplate, and I paid a silverplate price for it. However, it looks like coin silver to me. Could this be right? I don't see any base metal showing through anywhere, and it's hand engraved and intricately engine turned all over. It's quite heavy, with some dents that must have taken some good thumps to make--I imagine a baby banging it hard on the table. On the bottom, it's marked with a 3 and with W&H inside a rectangular punch. Would that be Wood & Hughes? It doesn't look like the other Wood & Hughes marks I've seen, but I'm the merest novice. Also, is my guess of 1850s plausible? IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 02-23-2006 09:13 PM
Maybe I should add--to reassure the moderators--that I have no intention of selling this cup. Instead, I'm planning to drink out of it. Any advice about what I should drink would be appreciated. Is it meant for milk? Water? Punch? Beer? Low-fat soy lattes with cinnamon? IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 02-23-2006 09:37 PM
I have eyeballed that same site, but have been too afraid to dive in and try it. I am as much as novice as you are, but I do have my handy-dandy Rainwater and Ensko in hand.  In the Ensco book the Wood and Hughes initials were sideways in a diamond and listed as 1846. No match. But, in the Rainwater it looks VERY similar. The & sign is the same and the letters look the same. The only difference is that there is a dot after each letter. The punch is also straight top and bottom, but bumpy on the ends. The mark that looks very much like yours was made from 1833-1871. So, if these books are correct there must have been several marks for them during that time period so I, too, would wonder if this is another example of it. The engraving looks similar to things I have that are from the mid 1800's. Maybe you should do that density test to see if it is coin or plated. I'm dying to know. IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 02-23-2006 10:13 PM
It kind of looks like a chocolate cup. Is it small and tall? It's hard to tell the size from the picture. [This message has been edited by outwest (edited 02-23-2006).] IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 02-23-2006 10:46 PM
It pays to be alert. I do believe this is a mark used by Wood & Hughes on coin silver. Octagonal cups were quite popular when this was made. These overall engraved patterns, sometimes referred to as "engine turning," are commonly found on later coin - your guess of the '50's may be right on the mark. I do not recognize the pseudohallmark; as it appears to be overstamped by the W&H punch, it may be that this piece was supplied by someone else and only retailed by Wood & Hughes. The octagonal shape is stylistic, and probably does not signify any specialized use. You win some and lose some when you gamble on a hunch, but that is the price of an education! [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 02-24-2006).] IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 02-23-2006 11:43 PM
This does look a Wood & Hughes mark, of which there are many. All with slight variations. My understanding is that W&H produced pieces 'in the metal' which were then sold throughout the nation by local smiths and jewelers. These pieces were in various stages of completion. The local artisan would then finish them up to his customers satisfaction. Usually, to my mind, the issue becomes wether or no this was decorated by W&H, who did some of the most exquisite work of their time. Could you show us some more pictures of the engraving, please? [This message has been edited by Dale (edited 02-23-2006).] IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 02-23-2006 11:55 PM
Thank you! I should have given the dimensions: It's 3 inches across the top (not including the handle) and about 3 1/4 inches tall. And on my kitchen scale it weighs between 125 and 130 grams. I assumed it must be a christening mug because it has a name engraved on it. Is that wrong? I'll post some more pictures soon. Chocolate sounds good. That's what this is now--my new chocolate cup. [This message has been edited by Polly (edited 02-24-2006).] IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 02-24-2006 12:07 AM
Here are some closer pictures of the engraving: I would love to know more about how engine turning works. What engine turns? How do they make those wonderful mechanical-looking patterns? IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 02-24-2006 01:03 AM
If it is any comfort, W&H never made silverplate. All their wares were silver. Thanksj for the pics, a stunning piece. IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 02-24-2006 01:51 AM
I keep thinking that MAndrews was for Master Andrews and that this was for a young boy. IP: Logged |
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asheland Posts: 935 |
posted 02-24-2006 01:53 AM
You did well. It looks alot like Coin to me. Nice find! IP: Logged |
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adelapt Posts: 418 |
posted 02-24-2006 03:30 AM
Yes Polly - I think you are on your way to addiction & doom. Welcome to the club. The decoration was partly hand engraved, but the regular wavy engraving, commonly called 'engine turning', was done by a special lathe, which itself is sometimes called a 'rose engine'. These can be used for engraving on metal, ceramics, wood and so on. Holzapfel are a well known maker, at least for wood work. IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 02-24-2006 07:52 AM
If I had found this in a shop I would be marching down that path to collecting fustration with you! It hits all the high points of coin baby cups. Hand raised, engine turned (Holzapfels for metal too), brightcut engraving as well as a good weight. If you can have a smith massage the dents out especially where the engine turning is, as it will wear unevenly and not look good in the future. What ever you paid it was cheap as the skill and labor to make such a "simple" cup would be prohibitive today. Good going and enjoy any liquid in it, I sugest wine! IP: Logged |
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rian Posts: 169 |
posted 02-24-2006 08:30 AM
Oh Polly, that cup is so beautiful. It will make you happy every time you think about it, a natural high and you deserve it. Well done! IP: Logged |
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venus Posts: 282 |
posted 02-24-2006 08:49 AM
nice..... very nice. to me every day is like a treasure hunt. "some days are diamonds some days are stone" and Polly looks like you got the diamond. Cheers IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 02-24-2006 11:20 AM
Thank you, everybody! Any advice about finding a silversmith who can take out the dents without removing the patina and character? I live in NYC, so it shouldn't be that hard, right? What do I look for and ask them? I once took a Victorian ring to a jeweler to replace a missing pearl, and it came back looking shiny and new, as if it had been mass produced yesterday. I definitely don't want that to happen to this cup. IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 02-24-2006 01:16 PM
Polly, This is a very sweet cup. This group was able to help me find a silversmith near me that I could trust. As suggested to me you could also call a local museum for a referral. It shouldn't cost much at all. I wish I had found it! IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 02-24-2006 02:59 PM
If you had, maybe the seller would have gotten something closer to what it's worth. But then, I probably wouldn't have been able to afford it. I love finding beautiful items listed incorrectly on that auction site! I also have a Wood & Hughes creamer from the same site, although it was listed correctly. Inexplicably, nobody bid against me for it, so I was able to afford it. It's just as beautiful, in a different way. Don't worry, it'll be your turn next time. IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 03-22-2006 09:29 PM
I just wanted to say, the very kind and talented agleopar took the dents out of my cup for me. It looks just as charming but more dignified now. Thanks, agleopar! He thinks the interesting construction of the foot is probably a later adjustment. The cup probably originally stood on a foot, which got squished down. But we both think it looks cool this way. IP: Logged |
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