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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 American Silver before sterling
 pre civil war southern silver
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| Author | Topic: pre civil war southern silver |
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creole Posts: 7 |
posted 11-14-2006 11:51 AM
  
[26-1256] I'm so happy this forum exists. An advance "thank you" to those of you who are able to help me on my journey to learn more about a Southern Lady's table setting. I am recently married and would like to begin my silver collection by purchasing place settings which are in keeping with the Old South. I'm aware that there are several sizes currently available (luncheon, place and dinner). I also realize that a Southern Belle would probably have had more than one service size to properly set the table for the occasion. Please share whatever knowledge you have of (1) silver patterns popular in the South which are still available today and (2) a good starting point "size" wise (place, dinner, etc.). Thanks, again. IP: Logged |
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rian Posts: 169 |
posted 11-14-2006 03:19 PM
Look at Mayflower by Samuel Kirk of Baltimore. This pattern has been made since 1846. Early on, it was copied by other Baltimore smiths so you can find antique pieces by makers other than Kirk. I really like the older pieces of Mayflower that I have but I don't know what the new stuff looks like. Sometimes the quality of the silver produced today does not live up to the earlier standards. Kirk-Stieff was owned by Dansk last I heard and Mayflower was sill in production. IP: Logged |
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rian Posts: 169 |
posted 11-14-2006 03:31 PM
My advice is to find the size which is most comfortable in your hand. If it doesn't feel comfortable, you won't use it. IP: Logged |
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IJP Posts: 326 |
posted 11-14-2006 11:22 PM
rian makes a good suggestion. Other patterns by the Kirk company would also be appropriate. Kirk's Repoussé is another that comes to mind. The Stieff company is currently affiliated with Kirk, and also made many patterns in this repoussé style. Both companies are from Baltimore, MD, which was actually a very active city for major silver companies. Beyond that, I don't think terribly many of the Southern manufacturers are known to have created much patterned flatware that is readily available today. IP: Logged |
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carlaz Posts: 239 |
posted 11-15-2006 08:05 AM
In the Kirk Repousse pattern, one of the benefits of collecting this pattern is that you can seek out the older pieces based upon the backstamp from Kirk. The newer pieces, although are nice, do not have the quality of repousse work and details that the original or older pieces do (IMO). If you decide upon an specific place setting size, you then might want to invest in Rainwaters book of American Silver Manufactures where is defines the specific dates that correspond with the backstamp at the time of production. Some examples are Kirk 925/1000 and S. Kirk & Son Inc. IP: Logged |
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blakstone Posts: 493 |
posted 11-15-2006 02:45 PM
Seeing as your name is "Creole", it should be mentioned that hands-down the most popular flatware pattern in antebellum New Orleans, especially among Creole families, was the classic "Fiddle Thread". It's still made today, but a huge variety of authentic 19th century pieces can be bought individually (and reasonably cheaply)with very little "hunting" involved. (That is, if you don't mind assembling a set from various makers and retailers - not as valuable as a true "set", but a large part of the fun of collecting it, if you ask me.) IP: Logged |
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IJP Posts: 326 |
posted 11-15-2006 05:58 PM
Both carlaz and blakstone make excellent suggestions. They each definitely know what they're talking about. If you decide to go with an assembled service of Fiddle, Fiddle Thread, or similar patterns with a particular attention to South Louisiana/New Orleans origins, I understand there was quite a bit of French flatware in this style retailed by such dealers as Hyde & Goodrich (of New Orleans, operating by that name until 1861). There has been a fair amount of discussion on the exact origins of many of these pieces. I find those threads to be a highly interesting read. Those discussions about Hyde & Goodrich are linked below: IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 11-15-2006 10:37 PM
Some other patterns that seem to be readily available in the deep south include the Oval Thread pattern and the many variations of the Olive pattern. Also the Jenny Lind pattern by Albert Cole was popular in the south and for that matter in most areas of the country. As one goes a little further north into Kentucky and Missouri the double swell fiddle was extremely popular. These patterns and the ones previously discussed are fairly easy to fine. IP: Logged |
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t-man-nc Posts: 327 |
posted 11-16-2006 12:15 PM
Just to offer the support of availabilit,and the beauty of the patterns...at least 5 - 7% of coin that I see is in Fiddle and Thread, and I just picked up 22 Dinner Forks in Jenny Lind... I will add pics ... "Smaug" IP: Logged |
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t-man-nc Posts: 327 |
posted 11-16-2006 12:18 PM
Here are the Fiddle and thread... The Jenny Lind ... Hope this works and is clear.... "Smaug" IP: Logged |
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doc Posts: 728 |
posted 11-16-2006 05:48 PM
It's so nice to have a posting like this! Bravo for you for seeking to keep the tradition of Southern ladies alive. As you may be aware, pre-Civil War coin silver is a very hot commodity and prices are quite steep, even for flatware. However, the patterns that have been suggested would be available from other manufacturers further up North and may come at a more reasonable price. I have always loved the Olive pattern myself, and it was also popular in the Boston area. I have been able to assemble a number of pieces quite reasonably. There are definitely some variations on the theme of the pattern, but I think that just makes it interesting! Best of luck to you! IP: Logged |
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creole Posts: 7 |
posted 11-20-2006 10:57 AM
Thank you so much for your assistance and the sources you suggested. This is very interesting! I can see how people can get so involved in learning about silver. What a great way to learn about history, our interconnectedness and the timelessness that surrounds a beautiful and functional piece of workmanship. IP: Logged |
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creole Posts: 7 |
posted 11-20-2006 11:01 AM
Thank you very much for your assistance. I wonder if you could tell me the place setting sizes that would have been popular in a New Orleans home (French household) and if that differs from that of a Creole/French plantation. Thank you, again. IP: Logged |
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creole Posts: 7 |
posted 11-20-2006 11:06 AM
Thank you for your assistance. I personally like the dinner size pieces. I have a "pianist's hands" according to my mother. She feels, however, that the dinner size pieces are too large and appropriate for dinner service only. Did they have a brunch, place and dinner size available in pre-CW South? If so, did a Southern Lady have all three? And, in that case, to set a table as accurately as I can afford (at this time) would a "place" setting be the most flexible? Did I ask too much? Thanks for your thoughts! IP: Logged |
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creole Posts: 7 |
posted 11-20-2006 11:14 AM
I love that pattern, too. I began thinking I would like to acquire the Joan of Arc pieces. In part, because it is a beautiful and relatively simple pattern. Joan of Arc is also a VERY celebrated saint in my husband's hometown outside of New Orleans. Do you know much about that pattern? Was it even in production prior to the Civil War? Would it have been available in France at that time? Thanks, again, for your help. I am really enjoying this forum and how fascinating "silver" can be. I'm sorry that I have no knowledge of silver to share, but if you are looking for a great itinerary in New Orleans, let me know!
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creole Posts: 7 |
posted 11-20-2006 12:02 PM
Thank you for your assistance. What does "coin" mean?
quote: IP: Logged |
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IJP Posts: 326 |
posted 11-20-2006 12:47 PM
It's great to see that we've stoked your interest in this. As for Joan of Arc, it is definitely not Civil War-era. It was in fact released by the International Silver Company in the 20th century. There's nothing wrong with selecting that pattern because of the affinity your husband's hometown has for Saint Joan of Arc, but do be aware that it is a more modern pattern. As to "coin silver", this is a generalized term for silver produced in the U.S. before the adoption of the sterling standard (0.925 fine, or 92.5% pure). It takes its name from the habit of early American silversmiths of melting down various coins ( of varying purities) for their silver, and working the metal into articles of silverwork. The purity, or fineness, can vary a great deal, but is often estimated at about 90%. The sterling standard had been adopted by most American silver manufacturers from the 1850s (Tiffany & Co., New York, was among the first) to about the 1870s at the latest. Many discussions on coin silver are available at this forum, most being located in the American Silver before sterling topic heading. A few of the more educational and interesting threads follow: It should also be noted that it's not necessary to post a separate reply for each of the members' responses to your query. A single, longer, message would be sufficient, neater, and much less confusing. When quoting members' replies, simply scroll down at the Reply page to find the body of the thread, and copy and paste the sections of the discussion you would like to quote. It appears that you have clicked the "Quote" icon at the upper right of other members' posts in order to reply to them. This is a convenient shortcut, but for quoting numerous passages from numerous sources, it is an unwieldy method. Copying and pasting from the thread is much simpler and results in keeping the thread much better organized. We understand you may be new to this type of forum, so we're glad to offer you any advice on how to use this fantastic resource! [This message has been edited by IJP (edited 11-20-2006).] IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 11-20-2006 01:33 PM
In addition to melting down various silver coins that were handy - including many from Spain and Mexico as well as other countries that were in general circulation in the U.S. until the middle of the 1800's they also melted down anything they could get their hands on including old candlesticks, flatware, bowls, plates, buckles, buttons, etc., etc. The reason all of those coins from other countries were in such wide circulation in the U.S. is there were not enough U.S. silver coins available due to the shortage of silver here prior to the big silver ore discoveries in the west in the middle of the 1800s. Coin silver is simply a term for a stew of whatever was available to melt down to get enough silver to make the new items and so there is no actual purity standard for the alloy. The figure of 90% pure is often used as a rough approximation though the actual silver content could be a bit higher or notably lower in any given object. After the sterling standard was widely adopted in the U.S., the term coin silver has continued to be used and it is applied when smiths decide for one reason or another to make objects with 90% pure silver. In these cases the standard is exactly 90% silver. Usually the purpose has been to reproduce old designs, though sometimes it is by simple personal preference, or even just to save a bit of money to use less silver in an object than making it of sterling would require. In most cases these objects will be marked with the words 'Coin Silver' in much the same way as sterling objects are marked with the word 'sterling'. [This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 11-20-2006).] IP: Logged |
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t-man-nc Posts: 327 |
posted 11-20-2006 05:46 PM
I agree with all of the references to "Coin" and I might add the following... At or just after the turn of the century 18th to 19th 1799 - 1815 'ish, sheet silver became available to smiths, with which they could create articles for their clients. There were some questions from these clients that prompted the smiths to begin to stamp "Coin" onto these pieces to indicate that the silver quality was as pure as the coins they used to melt to create the silver pieces. About 1820 (WEV correct me if I've got these dates wrong), some smiths began to stamp their wares with a variety of indicative words to represent the quality or purity of the metal. These included "Standard", "Premium", Coin" and others. In most cases, for meat least when referring to Sterling I almost always mention the Pattern name "Old Orange Blossom", "Love Disarmed", "Reposse", etc...However when discussing earlier silver, most were not referred to by a specific pattern but generically as "Coin"… Ergo my use of the term… "Smaug" IP: Logged |
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