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tline3open  Large and small cups

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Author Topic:   Large and small cups
ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 12-17-2011 08:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote




Above are the largest and smallest cups that I have found. The small one is 2 ½ inches tall, 2 inches wide at the top and tapers to 1 ½ inches at the bottom. The mark is hard to read, but it is “F. A. Beauvais St. Louis M.” This is the mark for Francis A Beauvais born 1824 and died 1893. Francis was the son of Gemini Beauvais who immigrated to St. Louis in 1799 from Montreal, Canada. Francis had three silversmiths’ brothers, Charles, Rene and Augustus. I believe Francis was born in Ste. Genevieve, Missouri.

The large cup is 4 1/2” tall and 3 ½” in diameter at the top. The mark is “John Campbell” with the mark of a flower impressed in the middle of the name. This flower mark turns up on other silver from this area and most likely was the mark used for quality control purposes by the manufacturer to designate the craftsman who actually made the cup.

James Cormany’s article in Silver Magazine, May-June 1992 notes that John Campbell appeared in Montgomery, Alabama in 1849 and retired in 1959.

The small cup is not inscribed, but the large cup is inscribed, “Eliza Jane Ball From her Husband Geo. C. Ball” The Ball’s were from Montgomery Co. Alabama.

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argentum1

Posts: 602
Registered: Apr 2004

iconnumber posted 12-17-2011 08:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Goodmorning ahwt and thanks for the great photos. My purpose is to ask for definitive definitions of Cup, Mug, Cann, Beaker, and Tankard. I cannot remember how many times these terms have been erroneously used by buyers and dealers alike. So, perhaps someone would care to do some educating. I have given up on that west coast site as no matter how many times a correction is offered it does no good.

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 12-17-2011 09:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

I think of cups, mugs, cans and tankards as drinking vessels with handles. A cup can include one designed to use with a saucer, while mugs, cans (or canns) and tankards are always designed for standalone use. I think of a tankard as a large and heavy mug often with a lid that makes them impracticable to drink from. I think of a cann as just the English spelling of can.
I think of beakers as drinking vessels designed for use without a handle. Normally on eBay beakers are referred to as cups particularly when describing julep cups. Also I notice that julep is often spelled julip.


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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 12-17-2011 09:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote


This cup is 4 1/2” tall with an upper diameter of 3 ¾”. The makers did not put their mark on the cup, but the inscription on this cup is delightful and reads “D. Anthony Acer from his Grand Mother Harriette Peck April 5th 1856”. The engraver was very talented and in a sense gave a sample of all his/her work by engraving each line with a different style or size font. The repoussé work is also intriguing on this cup with a drapery-like top embellishment and a flowing water design appearing to emerge from the bottom of the cartouche.

This cup is the same height as the John Campbell shown above, but does not appear as large since part of the height is taken with the narrow pedestal.

argentum1, maybe this should be considered a cup while the John Campbell piece might best be considered a can.

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 12-17-2011 09:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote


This cup was made by William Forbes for Ball Black and Company-it is simply inscribed “Emma”. This cup is 4 ¼” tall with an upper diameter of 2 ¾” inches. This cup is only slightly smaller that the Campbell cup and the unmarked cup but appears substantially smaller because of the narrow top.

William Forbes was the son of Colin Van Gelder Forbes and the grandson of William Garret Forbes. William Forbes was active in New York from 1826 to 1863/64. Much of his work is stamped with the eagle and star. McGrew is undecided as to whether these are manufacturers’ marks or journeyman marks.

The flared opening on the unmarked cup and the contracted top on the Forbes cup seem very appropriate for an Anthony and an Emma.

These large cups are really suited for an eggnog punch where a generous portion is desirable.

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wev
Moderator

Posts: 4121
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 12-17-2011 10:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
“D. Anthony Acer from his Grand Mother Harriette Peck April 5th 1856”

Given on his first birthday. Lovely.

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Ulysses Dietz
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Posts: 1265
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 12-20-2011 10:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ulysses Dietz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Terminology is fascinating. I noted that on "Keeping Up Appearances" the Brit comedy series, what Americans would call coffee mugs are referred to as beakers. Mug survives as a term into the nineteenth century, but can/cann does not. Although our modern version, the tin or aluminum can (tin to the Brits) derives directly from that old term. A cup implies one or two handles...but then you have the julep cup which is really a beaker. To me, a tankard must have a lid; without it is a mug or a cann.

Here is a colonial cann by Daniel Henchman of Boston, given to us by Louis Bamberger in the early 1920s.

And here is a 1690s tankard, made for a Newark family, by Gerrit Onckelbag...

A conservative colonial Georgian tankard made in NJ in the 1770s by Abram DuBois for a Dutch family named Vanderveer.

The Victorian version of the mug (no longer called a can) by Baldwin & Co. of Newark, 1850s...

And the great modern avatar of the mug, a silver dixie cup by Ubaldo Vitali, designed for Bulgari in the 1970s, given to the Museum by Ubaldo in 1984.

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bascall

Posts: 1629
Registered: Nov 99

iconnumber posted 04-19-2013 03:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ahwt:
[Francis A Beauvais born 1824 and died 1893.

It may just be a typo, but if this is the correct Francis A Beauvais' his death certificate has his date of death recorded as May 23, 1897 age 73 years 5 months and 15 days. He is buried in Calvary Cemetery in St Louis.

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 04-19-2013 04:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Bascall I am not sure where I got the other date.

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Polly

Posts: 1970
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 04-19-2013 05:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I love the tulips (if that's what they are) on that William Forbes mug.

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 04-19-2013 07:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think they may be English bluebells.

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 04-26-2013 12:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

The above photos were taken at Calvary Cemetery in St. Louis. The Francis A. Beauvais family plot is lot 88 section 3 and by the records of the cemetery Rene Beauvais is listed as the owner of the lot. Rene is listed as being buried on 10/30/76 while Francis was buried on 5/25/97. Francis’s headstone had fallen off its base and while the lettering is worn it appears to indicate he was born in 1823 and died on May 23, 1897. His wife is buried next to him and the headstone appears to have been placed there after her death by their children.

General William Tecumseh Sherman, Tennessee Williams, Dr. Thomas A Dooley and Dred Scott are other notables buried in this cemetery.

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 10-21-2021 10:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This post discussed the meaning of mug, beaker, tankard, can and cann.
I came across a group of people named the beaker people that are credited with inventing the "beaker". The beaker started it life in pottery and I suspect it was not too long before metal-smiths adopted the form.

[This message has been edited by ahwt (edited 10-21-2021).]

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