posted 08-13-2008 10:42 AM            

Hello,

I just obtained an original American? colonial silver tankard from the original family it was made for in 1747. But cant seem to figure out the maker, by the name.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Here are some pics, I believe is is S.DUNN?

posted 08-13-2008 11:45 AM            

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Originally posted by argentum1:
By your profile you are an antiques dealer. I am assuming you purchased the item for resale. As such this is not the appropriate site to ask commercially related questions. The members provide their level of expertise for free and are always willing to share their knowledge with like minded persons. Do what others have done and invest in reference books. This is expensive but as a dealer this is the cost of doing business.

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posted 08-13-2008 12:34 PM            

I have looked at your images and do not believe the name is S. Dunn. The mark is chattered, and the letters immediately following the D are indistinct; the last letter, an "n," is double struck. Nor do I recognize the medallion on the handle terminal, perhaps a family crest for Phillips? Is there a family by this name in the history of the piece? Are there any engraved initials anywhere on the piece? Additional photos of the entire piece might help provide age and/or location information that would help trace the maker.

posted 08-13-2008 12:39 PM            

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Originally posted by swarter:
As long as long as dealers ars willing to acknowledge they have read and and will agree to abide by the guidelines, they are welcome to join our other collectors and dealers in silver discussions. Avoiding such misunderstandings is the reason that first time posters are asked to introduce themselves and share with us their interest in silver before requesting help with identifications. Now that you have made clear your intentions we welcome your participation the forums as a collector and student of silver.

I have looked at your images and do not believe the name is S, Dunn. The mark is chattered, and the letters immediately following the D are indistinct; the last letter, an "n" is double struck. Nor do I recognize the medallion on the handle terminal, perhaps a family crest for Phillips? Is there a family by this name in the history of the piece? Are there any engraved initials anywhere on the piece. Additional photos of the entire piece might help provide age and/or location information that would help trace the maker.

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posted 08-13-2008 01:31 PM            

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I believe the medallion is actually a Spanish "Piece of Eight" And is is from a prominate & Important Rhode Island Family.

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posted 08-13-2008 05:50 PM            

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Originally posted by cleansweepout:
Thank you for the info. I believe the medallion is actually a Spanish "Piece of Eight" And is is from a prominate & Important Rhode Island Family. But dont feel comfortable posting the family name. The lid of the tankard has an engraving of a ship or sloop and is dated 1747. I also thought the mark may have been double struck?

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The coin is not a 'piece of eight' it is called a peseta or 'a piece of two' if you wish to use the corresponding term to 'piece of eight'. The lettering on the coin translates as:
Philippus V D G stands for Philip V Dei Gratia or Philip the Fifth, by grace of God.

The letters near the shield in the middle are read from left to right so you would read them as: 'R II S AP' These stand for 'Reales 2, Sevilla, Pedro Remigo Gordillo and Antonio Montero' That means it is a 2 Real coin (the value), the place where it was minted is Seville, Spain, and I believe the assayers were Pedro Remigo Gordillo and his partner Antonio Montero who assayed in the first half of the 1730s. If it were a piece of eight, the value would be 8 reales and it would be 4 times bigger and heavier than this 2 real coin. It would also have a marking of either VIII or 8 as the value in place of the II.

posted 08-13-2008 10:29 PM            

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It seems to be too nicely made to have been made by a relative unknown smith. Or perhaps the tankard could even be later than it appears given the difference in the date of the coin and the inscription on the lid?

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Remember that an object may not always bear the mark of its actual maker - it could have been supplied for resale to someone less well known, who might then have added his mark.

Spanish coins were in circulation in the colonies for years, so a coin could be used at any time after the mint date, and the date on the lid could have been added at any time after the tankard was made, which could have been before or after 1747. Although it is indistinct in the photograph, I think I can see that the placement of the mark is to the left of the top of the handle. If that is the case, marks found in that position rather than on the bottom usually are found on earlier pieces, and it is not likely that the tankard would have been made much after 1747.

posted 08-15-2008 10:28 AM            

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Originally posted by swarter:
Spanish coins were in circulation in the colonies for years, so a coin could be used at any time after the mint date, and the date on the lid could have been added at any time after the tankard was made, which could have been before or after 1847. Although it is indistinct in the photograph, I think I can see that the placement of the mark is to the left of the top of the handle. If that is the case, marks found in that position rather than on the bottom usually are found on earlier pieces, and it is not likely that the tankard would have been made much after 1847.

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Hi Swarter. Cleansweepout is saying that the engraving on the tankard's lid says 1747, not 1847.

posted 08-15-2008 01:10 PM            

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Hi Swarter. Cleansweepout is saying that the engraving on the tankard's lid says 1747, not 1847.

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posted 08-17-2008 11:38 AM            

I'd go to a library and study Patricia Kane's book on New England silversmiths. It's hard to believe there's an undiscovered silversmith who make things this major, but you never know.

posted 08-19-2008 10:55 AM            

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could the strike be a spurious addition at a later date? It bothers me that no one has heard of this smith when the tankard is clearly the work of an experienced master smith.

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It seems illogical to suggest that a spurious mark of an unknown smith would be made or used, rather than that of a well known maker. I suppose it is possible, however unlikely, that an owner would have a punch made with his name, although engraving certainly was the traditional method of indicating ownership.

There is a lot of silver with untraced marks (mostly spoons, but some major pieces, too) - many makers (or resellers) remain, for whatever reasons, under the radar.

posted 08-19-2008 05:09 PM            

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Originally posted by wev:
You are missing Rhode Island Deputy Governor Darius Sessions, Stephen Hopkins' neighbor.

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posted 08-19-2008 07:35 PM            

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Originally posted by cleansweepout:
The original owner of this tankard has npw been metioned in a previos post. As I mention, the family did not want me to post it. So we know as I oreviously mention this was owned by a very important & wealthy RI Family.

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posted 08-25-2008 01:23 PM            

It is easy to imagine a very young man doing an apprenticeship which was no small feat when done in the traditional manner and included, according to how an apprentices's contract was written, a decent amount of eucation in the liberal arts. And then letting economics or personal preference pull him into another profession when the age of majority was reached.

At the time all this was happening, Providence, Rhode Island was relatively unknown in the nautical world, and there was an awfully lot jobs to be filled and money to be made in privateering.