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tline3open  I.W. Forbes tea set

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Author Topic:   I.W. Forbes tea set
Polly

Posts: 1970
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 07-05-2015 01:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For Teasetz, photos of my I.W. Forbes (John Wolfe Forbes) Federal Era teapot and its friends.

The teapot:

The whole set, which includes a sugar bowl and creamer:

The teapot with its cousin, a coffee pot also made by (the workshop of?) I.W. Forbes, in NYC in the first couple of decades of the 19th century:

Closeup of the teapot's handle:

If anyone has an opinion about the precise date of this tea set or the coffee pot (which I've posted about before), please don't hold back!

Also if anyone has an opinion about whether the animal finials are lionesses, lion cubs, or pug dogs.

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Polly

Posts: 1970
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 07-05-2015 01:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A closer look at the animal finials on the teapot and sugar bowl lid:



The marks are very worn on the teapot and sugar bowl, but they're fairly clear on the creamer:

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 07-06-2015 08:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You have a great tea service by Mr. Forbes. Deborah Dependahl Waters’ book on New York silver shows a similar tea service that must have been made about the same time as your set. She dates the one in the book as 1815-20 and I should think that your set dates from the same time period. These two sets may have been made within weeks or months of each other.

Ms. Waters states that the finial is a recumbent dog and that the handle also has a dog’s head carved in wood while your teapot has the imaginative sea creature in silver.

I wonder if the two original owners knew each other. I could imagine one couple buying one and another couple seeing it and saying to themselves “We have to buy one just like that but we have to make our slightly different.” Do you have any idea as to the original owners of your tea service?

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asheland

Posts: 935
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 07-06-2015 10:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very cool! smile

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Polly

Posts: 1970
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 07-06-2015 11:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you, awht! I wish I knew who owned my set, but it's not monogrammed (not that that would necessarily help all that much) and it came to me without provenance.

Thank you for pointing me to the Elegant Plate book, which I actually have! (My silver library is not very big.)

I'm willing to believe Waters about the date. She thinks the combination of round and oblong bodies (oblong teapot, creamer, and sugar, and round waste bowl) suggests the latish date of the late 18-teens. My set has only oblong bodies, since there's no waste bowl, but it's perfectly possible the waste bowl is just missing. (If anyone ever sees it, please let me know!)

I'm still not so sure the finial animals are dogs, though. The dog spout and wooden teapot handle on the teapot in the book don't look like the animal on the finials, which has a long tail with a sort of puff at the end and a face that looks more feline than canine to me. Of course, it doesn't have a mane. But neither do the faces of the handles on the book's sugar bowl and creamer, which Waters calls lions. The finial looks way more like those "lions" than it does like that set's other "dogs," to me. And my set doesn't have any other dogs--my spout has scales, and my handles have finned tails.

Still, who really knows? It's not like these things are photographs of actual animals, and there weren't a lot of lions or sea serpents running around Federal NYC.

I wonder whether John Wolfe Forbes and his workshop offered its tea sets with a choice of handles, finials, feet, and handles. The family who ordered the set in the book may have been dog lovers, and the family who ordered mine might have been more whimsical. Or maybe they thought lions and sea serpents were Classical.

Waters writes, "No similarly decorated service is associated with the Forbes shop." I wonder whether she would consider my set "similarly decorated." (Ms. Waters, do you read SMP forums????)

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 07-06-2015 12:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
WEV has on his website a tea set and a tea pot by Forbes with some of the same interesting features that are on your set. Note the “lion like” finial on the teapot that is shown with the creamer and covered sugar. These all look oblong as your set, but have simple ball feet that would indicate to me that they were slightly earlier. WEV gives a date of 1820.
The teapot is given a date of 1810 and has a head on the end of the sprout that looks a little like the carved wooden head on the one in Waters book. It also has the leaf like decoration emanating from the legs.
The 1820s were very good years for Mr. Forbes.

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swarter
Moderator

Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 07-06-2015 01:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The rounded ears and tufted tail are definitely leonine features, not canine, so this finial is without question depicting a lion.

IWF is one of my favorite workers of the period. He did fine work.

Nice pieces to have. I particularly like the larger pot.

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Polly

Posts: 1970
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 07-06-2015 01:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you, awht and Swarter. Very glad they're lions rather than dogs.

I just realized teasetz can't comment here because she's still a new member. Apologies, teasetz. Come join us in the full forums soon!

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doc

Posts: 728
Registered: Jul 2003

iconnumber posted 07-06-2015 08:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for doc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wow, Polly!! That is an amazing teaset. Thanks for sharing!

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Polly

Posts: 1970
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 07-06-2015 08:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you, doc.

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teasetz

Posts: 56
Registered: Jun 2015

iconnumber posted 07-07-2015 04:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for teasetz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Glorious!! (and I joined so I can comment. Thanks to the Silver Salon community!)

The one thing that caught my eye about the animals is it appears that the feet are cloven hooves rather than paws. Is it just me? There seems to be a definite line down the center of the extended foot and the tucked back leg also looks cloven hoof-like to me. I'm guessing it's a made up fantasy creature!

Many thanks for the pictures. I really love looking at the pictures on this site. So great to see what everyone has found and collected! These pots are so detailed and rich. They are also what we call "wabi sabi" here in Japan: not exactly perfect (symmetrical, etc.) and more beautiful and valued because of that, especial as it shows they are hand-crafted.

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Polly

Posts: 1970
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 07-07-2015 10:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Welcome, teasetz! Thanks for the kind words and observations.

The cloven-hoof effect is just the photo angle--in real life they're paws, with several toes, not just two.

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asheland

Posts: 935
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 07-07-2015 10:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My opinion, this is the best site there is for silver collectors to share knowledge and discuss everything silver! smile

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