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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 American Silver before sterling
 Mark EW on c.1750 American Cann
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| Author | Topic: Mark EW on c.1750 American Cann |
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LarryParks Posts: 20 |
posted 01-17-2011 11:59 AM
  
[26-2103] I have inherited an American cann with this mark: It is c.1750 cann given to the Second Presbyterian Church of Newburyport (Massachusetts) between the the time the Church was founded 1795 and 1800. The mark has been variously attributed to Edward Winslow, Edward Webb, and Eleazar Wyer. The cann appears too late for Webb and unlike Winslow's known marks. Does anyone have any ideas? IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 01-17-2011 02:53 PM
Larry, In your prior posting (until you deleted everything) and then in my email reply to you, you were asked to respond with the requested info in the yellow box above. Please read and respond as requested in the the yellow box above. Is there any particular reason why you are not? Thanks for reducing the size of your images. IP: Logged |
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LarryParks Posts: 20 |
posted 01-17-2011 03:11 PM
Hello again, I tried the SEARCH but could not find anything about this particular mark. I did post a picture (reduced in size). I do have several pieces of silver left to me by my family. Mostly they are flatware (coin, both Colonial and Early American). I also have this cann. I have never been able to find this mark in any of the guides, Ensko, Fales, etc. Because all of the other pieces which originally belonged to the Second Presbyterian Church of Newburyport are American (3 canns in Smithsonican, 1 cann and 1 tankard in Hammerslough Collection at Wadsworth in Hartford, CT, a tankard at Ford Museum in Dearborn, MI) and predate the formation of the Church, I am certain this cann is American. I would like to learn who made this cann? I guess my purpose is academic in nature. I have no interest in selling or other financial purposes. Hopefully, this addresses the questions in the yellow section. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-17-2011 03:29 PM
Welcome to the forum. Can you post some pictures of the cann? They can be larger -- up to 640p wide. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 01-17-2011 03:53 PM
Hi Larry. Thanks for your introduction and welcome to the forum. Markings by themselves are difficult judge and can be unreliable. With older silver objects, the overall design, the construction techniques, the shape, etc. are perhaps more important than the markings in trying to decide the maker and the time period. The markings are supporting rather than defining, especially since there have been so many spurious markings applied to older silver objects. They may or may not have been applied by the actual maker. I am not saying that is the case with your object, but it has to be a consideration that needs to be addressed with every piece of older silver no matter what the provenance. If you could please post some clear, well lit and well focussed photos of the object from different angles and its different features such as how the bottom is attached to the sides, any other markings, engravings, or designs anywhere on it. Please include something in the photos to give a sense of the size and proportions (something like a small ruler, a dollar bill, a coin, etc.) that would be a great help in trying to help decide what you have. A couple of additional questions - this may or may not be American but you say you are certain that it is. Do you have some information that leads you to be certain it is American? Also, liturgical silver does not often wind up in private hands since it belongs to a given church. Is there a story on when and how this came to be in your family's hands? Regards, IP: Logged |
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LarryParks Posts: 20 |
posted 01-17-2011 04:34 PM
 Here is a side view of the cann in question. IP: Logged |
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LarryParks Posts: 20 |
posted 01-17-2011 04:47 PM
Here is the bottom of the cann. The weight is 11 ounces, 19 pennyweight troy. Height of the cann is 5 and 1/4 inches. IP: Logged |
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LarryParks Posts: 20 |
posted 01-17-2011 04:58 PM
Detail of top rim of cann. Mottling effect on surface is due to dulling spray used to reduce glare in photo. IP: Logged |
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LarryParks Posts: 20 |
posted 01-17-2011 05:00 PM
quote: IP: Logged |
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LarryParks Posts: 20 |
posted 01-17-2011 05:10 PM
Engraving on side of cann opposite handle. Mottling of surface is dulling spray to reduce glare in photo. This engraving is not original to making of cann. This Church was formed in 1795 after a rift formed within membership of First Presbyterian Church of Newburyport. Notice misspelling "PRESBYTRIAN." This same misspelling is found in a sister cann by John Ball in the collection of the Smithsonian. There are faint remnants of block letters on handle of cann near thumb area at top. IP: Logged |
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LarryParks Posts: 20 |
posted 01-17-2011 05:11 PM
 IP: Logged |
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LarryParks Posts: 20 |
posted 01-17-2011 05:18 PM
There appear to be no other maker's marks other than near the center point at the bottom of the cann. One is clearly EW and the other appears to have been a mis-strike of the stamp which ending up showing only the lower right hand part of the W. I can find no signs of British hallmarks. The membership of the Church in its early years, 1795 onward, seems to be only English-American demographically. Any ideas? IP: Logged |
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LarryParks Posts: 20 |
posted 01-17-2011 05:31 PM
This cann was left to me by a family member who purchased it in 1985. I have some documents which show that, at one time, this cann was owned by a collector named Clarke from Boston and later by a Mark Bortman. The Church which owned this piece dissolved in the 1930's and various pieces were sold into private hands until ending up in various museums. I am told that this particular cann was considered somewhat less desirable to a collector due to the fact that there was no definite identification of the maker. It was supposedly exhibited as the product of Edward Winslow and Eleazar Wyer. One expert thought Edward Webb but too late in style for his work. The other pieces owned by the Church were confirmed to be made by such well-known Boston area silversmiths as Jacob Hurd, John Burt, John Ball, and William Simpkins, all of whom worked much earlier than the time of the founding of the Church. [This message has been edited by LarryParks (edited 01-17-2011).] IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-17-2011 05:59 PM
I don't think an estimation of a date based on Second church ownership can be made, given its birth in the schism after the ordination of Daniel Dana on 19 November 1794. Silver from the First may have been passed on to the Second or congregants of the new Second may have donated old family pieces to fill the void, which is more likely. Either way, the Second Church ownership is just one point in the time line. The inscriptions were latter additions, uniting the various pieces to the church. Do you know if there are any extant church records? IP: Logged |
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LarryParks Posts: 20 |
posted 01-17-2011 06:39 PM
I have made attempts to locate the Church records. The building itself was eventually bought by a Greek Orthodox congregation in Newburyport. Records were supposed to have been transferred to the Presbytery and eventually to the Prestyterian Historical Society in Philadelphia. I had a genealogical researcher do some work there but reached a dead end as there was no mention of plate owned by the Second Church. Since there are faint block initials on the handle of this cann, I make the assumption that it was privately owned before coming into the possession of the Second Church. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 01-17-2011 07:19 PM
"Presbytrian" is not a misspelling - Google it, and you will see there are quite a number of Presbytrian Churches in this country. It was not unusual for older silver to be donated to churches. If the rest of the engraving is similar, there might be little reason to doubt that this cup was donated to the church at the same time and possibly by the same person as the Ball piece in the Smithsonian, and engraved at the same time by the same person. Be that as it may, according to several sources, this style of handle ("double C") was commonest in the 1760 - 80 period, and a simpler "single C" was more frequent earlier. Certainly this cann is too late for Webb, marginal for Winslow, and could be in the same time frame as Wyer (Sr.) - I am not aware of an initial mark attributed to Wyer (Sr.). It is typical of canns made around the third quarter of the 18th Century, and there is no reason to doubt its Colonial American origin. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 01-17-2011).] IP: Logged |
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