posted 02-19-2007 03:37 AM            

Six years ago, at the Salvation Army, I got a tray which immediately reminded me of the centuries-old, handmade masterpieces I had read about. Although it can't be genuine, it has all the characteristics one would expect to find. Handling, studying, and admiring it has increased my appreciation for, and understanding of, historic silver.

At the moment it has a worn spot of silver plating revealing what I believe to be the blue patina of coin silver. I don't know what to do about it. I would like the appearance to be compatible with the rest of the old-looking features.

I would appreciate any suggestions you may have. Thank you.

(These pictures are terrible, but they do show the plating problem, style, and marking of the piece.)

posted 02-25-2007 09:23 PM            

Seeing that "Poorly phrased inquiries are often ignored.", I thought I would try again...

I am still interested in finding out if there are ways to deal with silver plating without damaging the surface of what's underneath.

In addition, I now realize that knowing more about this tray is part of the solution. I've always treated it as if it might be a significant piece because I haven't convinced myself that it's not. I don't want to do anything I will regret. So, I really should find out if it's old or not. For many reasons I suspect it is.

I would appreciate any help with identification. Even a continent or a century would be a start! Hopefully this picture - as well as the mark right side up - will be useful. I tried to find com parables but didn't come up with anything.

Thank you for your time.

posted 02-25-2007 11:20 PM            

Since the tray probably is electroplate, a date after 1847 seems logical. The decoration is in imitation of much older work. Sometimes this style of grape and leaf indicates liturgical use, as in offering plate. But not usually.

Dimensions are a dead giveaway as to origin. If the dimensions work out evenly in inches, we can assign this to the English speaking world. If they are even metric numbers, it is most likely European.

The tray strikes me as deeper than normal, which to me means older. Don't know why, but have had the experience that as the 20th century wore on, trays became shallower. This may have begun its career as part of a larger ensemble. perhaps it sat in a silverplate frame with hot water underneath.

My own guess if I had to assign a date would be 1890 to 1915. As to maker, I suspect it was some company that ordinarily did not make silverplate. Sometimes utilitarian objects like trays were sold by retailers that made sterling. They bear some obscure mark, one that never made it into Rainwater. Or it is a commercial or liturgical piece with marks outside the usual silver reference framework.

posted 02-26-2007 12:21 AM            

I know I sound confused, but this tray does have a lot of weird things going on. For example:

• There are solder repairs both under and over the plating
  
• There are two small scrape marks, possibly for silver testing, under the plating
  
• There are indentations on both front and back centers, possibly from monogram removal, under the plating
  
• There is tarnish under the plating
  
• There is a definite counter-clockwise wear pattern on the front, possibly from over polishing, under the plating
  
• But most remarkably evident of all, there is such extreme wear to the engraving, under the plating

It is too late to take individual pictures that would really highlight the points I referred to. Here is a general one that does indicate several of the problems.
Good night.

posted 02-26-2007 05:34 PM            

At that point in history there was quite an arts and crafts movement in both the USA and parts of Europe where individuals would take relatively plain objects and decorate them as a way to pass the evening hours. They would take plain ceramics or items of furniture or metal things and add designs. Many of these designs were purchased in the form of a sheet of paper that the handicrafter would trace over on the object they wanted to decorate. Some of these objects were done by seriously talented artists, some by semi-talented amateurs, and most by less talented amateurs and students.

The relatively crude punch design on this one combined with its being plated make me think of this time in history. You also mentioned that it appears to be plated over some dark coloring on the underlying metal. That makes me think that such a handicraft type person may have had it plated at some local plating place after they punched their design into it - a place that may not have thoroughly cleaned the base metal before plating it. Or it could be a home-done plating operation. Setting up a simple silver plating tank in your barn or gargage is not especially hard, but setting up a professional quality one does take some money, effort, and knowledge.

posted 02-26-2007 11:48 PM            

So, I would ask does anyone here have access to a survey of marks on pewter?

The scenario that rooted itself in my mind is this. Someone took an old family pewter piece and during the period Kimo suggests decorated it with the grape leaf design. Which looks very much like 17th century crewel work, by the way. Kimo's date of 1895 seems resonable for this work. And then 30 years down the road, someone had the bright idea of silverplating the pewter. Which would have been done right over the repairs.

Move ahead to the war years. There was little to buy for wedding gifts. So, someone had the bright idea of giving this old family heirloom as a present. But felt a new plating would make it more presentable. The plater then proceeded to correct the faults in the piece with solder. Which explains the solder both under and over the plate as Fernande explains. This has been plated at least twice based on the evidence.

posted 02-27-2007 06:48 AM            

This morning, I've tried to take pictures that show that the engraving is indeed very fine. Each perfectly placed tiny punch in the vine is a circle, not a hole. The grapes show remnants of each being two circles with a hole. At one time the leaves were entirely textured and slightly embossed. Most of the details have worn away except in the lowest areas. This picture shows the leaf with the best hint of remaining texture.

The tray is only one inch tall, it is not an exaggerated form. As Dale pointed out, more current ones do seem flat in contrast, however.

The mark is very small, 1/8". I cannot make it out with a loupe or magnifying glass. The picture was just a fluke that I haven't been able to replicate.

Thanks again!!

posted 03-01-2007 10:45 PM            

I reread the funny thread here about the chalice from the Plaza, and unfortunately I see myself in the delusional man while my tray does share physical resemblances to the chalice. Oh no, I see where this is headed, but I'm just not there yet.

It's good to know that silver plating over anything is not unusual, and doesn't reflect on the object itself. Your scenarios of possible explanations were enlightening, as well as heartening, since there weren't obvious answers to the complexities of this tray.

I am very familiar with the feel and look of the lesser metals you thought were likely. This tray is unlike those, as well as sterling. Since it is indeed handmade, and I'm unfamiliar with coin silver, I still think that's a possibility. Since silver wasn't so expensive in the time frames you suggested, I don't believe anyone would bother engraving anything less.

I agree with Dale that the engraving is reminiscent of the 17th-century. At that time, simple punches were in style. Contrary to Kimo's assertion that the engraving is crude, I can find it too refined in comparison with shown examples of authentic period work. Though very worn, when new it was probably magnificent.

The above pictures are of the same leaves and grapes, front and back. I'm showing Dale the dippy solder repairs which correspond to the deepest engraved areas. Possibilities include that the home engraver was clumsy and fixed his mistakes, or that after years of extensive wear old engraving was just worn out. Of course I don't know, what do you see? There are also two pitting/salt-disease holes that went all the way through the thick metal and were filled with solder.

[This message has been edited by Fernande (edited 03-02-2007).]

posted 03-07-2007 06:48 AM            

Dale's first impression of this tray actually being a collection plate seems correct. From the pictures I saw (as above), they all seem to have about the same proportions and dimensions as mine. A narrow, concave rim is standard. I couldn't find an answer to why a grape & leaf motif is associated with offering plates by googling. Since the styling probably hasn't changed in centuries, I suppose it's impossible to assign a date by looks alone.

Thanks for the clarification of terms - engraving vs chasing. And the real word for texture seems to be granulation. Despite looking so old fashioned, chasing somehow seems more modern now than repousee and bright-cut techniques. I like it very much, and thanks to your craft-project scenarios, I plan on trying it myself. (When I'm recognized as a renowned silver artist, I'll be sure to give you all the credit for inspiring my start.)

I agree with Kimo, silver plating real silver doesn't make sense. That's why for years I never even suspected it was silver plated and was shocked to find out it was. There are so many quirks in this collection plate that just aren't consistent with mass-produced, contemporary silver plate.

Although just the thought of showing it to somebody makes me feel uncomfortable for some reason, I plan on taking it to the jewelry store for testing tomorrow. Then I can decide what to do about the surface look. And as I mentioned earlier, this piece has evidence of being tested several times already, so I know I'm not the only one ever to be confused. (I'll remember to tell that to the jeweler when he looks at me funny.)

Thank you for your insights, and I would appreciate anything else you may add.

posted 03-10-2007 01:02 AM            

What sets liturgical silver apart from what we deal with here is this. It is produced and marketed apart from the way silverphiles look at the system for producing and distributing silver. Liturgical silver appears to exist in a parallel universe. One traditional silver research never seems to look at.