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 Silverplate Forum
 cakeserver FDR Initial 6DWT Sterling
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| Author | Topic: cakeserver FDR Initial 6DWT Sterling |
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anndoran Posts: 3 |
posted 06-05-2007 09:23 AM
  
[26-1418] Hi: I found this cake server amongst a 50 piece set of 1928 Weidlich Priscilla sterlingware. There is no makers mark other than the 6DWT STERLING on both sides of the handle and the monogram of FDR. It looks to be of the same age as the Weidlich pieces. I noticed that a few years ago, another post mentioned a piece with these marks marking but no one was sure of it's origin. I was wondering if there was anymore recent info on this. Thanks, Eileen IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 06-05-2007 10:47 AM
DWT is the abbreviation for pennyweight. The letter D is what used to be used in Great Britain as the abbreviation for penny up until 1971. It comes from the word denier which is the original word for the coin called the penny from over a thousand years ago. Back then deniers (pennies) were made out of silver. The word denier was originated under Charlemagne who created this type of coin and named them after the Roman coin called the denarius. Keep in mind that Britain and France had "owned" each other off an on in those centuries so there was a great deal of cutural integration between the two at that time. The WT comes from the word weight so when you see the letters DWT on a silver object - normally you see it on flatware - you know it stands for pennyweight. These days a pennyweight is a unit of measurement for silver and approximates the historical amount of silver in one of those old silver pennies. Now it means one-twentieth of an ounce, or that there are 20 pennyweights of silver to total one ounce. When you see the pennyweight abbreviation on flatware it tells you that you have silverplate and not solid silver. The number in front of the DWT signifies the approximate amount silver that was used by the manufacturer to silverplate either 12 or 24 of that item (I have seen both figures used). In the case of your cake server, the company would have used 6 pennyweights of sterling silver, which comes to six-twentieths (or three-tenths) of an ounce, to plate either 12 or 24 cake servers. The higher the pennyweight number, the thicker the silver plating. 6DWT is a relatively light plating - I have seen some flatware marked as low as 3 pennyweights and some higher quality plated flatware with 30 or 40 pennyweights though it is possible there may be even higher numbers. More commonly I see numbers in the 12 to 18 pennyweight range. IP: Logged |
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anndoran Posts: 3 |
posted 06-05-2007 11:02 AM
I thought that Sterling stamp was not allowed on items if it wasn't pure sterling silver? Could there be any interest in the "FDR" monogram? Thanks for you quick response. Eileen IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 06-05-2007 11:50 AM
If you could post a closeup of the marking it would help. Speaking generally, though, some companies play a bit fast and loose with their markings. Technically, the marking 6DWT Sterling is not the same as a marking of just Sterling. It is like a marking of German Silver which is used on some objects that have absolutely no silver in them, or Weighted Sterling on some thing like candlesticks which means there is a paperthin sheet of Sterling silver covering a filling of pitch or cement. As for the FDR monogram, I am not sure what your question is. Monograms are normally the initials of the lady who originally owned the set of flatware. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 06-05-2007 12:32 PM
quote: Most likely this is no more than coincidence. You would have to have appropriate provenance for the item, or at least the knowledge that this pattern was owned by that family, before even considering a claim of ownershiip. There were many thousande of owners of silver, and the liklihood of similar but unrelated. initials appearing is great. In addition, well-to-do families were much more likely to have owned solid sterling than electroplated silver. The notation on your server probably is meant to imply only that sterling silver was used for the plating material. IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 06-05-2007 08:05 PM
Back in the 60's and 70's, there were some dealers who had little sterling markers. These were hand operated. And these clever rogues went around marking all sorts of things sterling. That being said, silverplate almost always has a company mark. In my humble experience, unmarked silverplate flatware is almost non-existant. The pattern shown resembles literally dozens of old patterns. In the 20's there were some companies that sold silver servers as a sideline to their own business. Like a flour maker offering cake servers to buyers. And some of these are really sterling, with odd marks. The maker did not want his own mark on something given away. So they would put on a goofy mark like 6dwt. These pieces are all over the place and yet remain a mystery. IP: Logged |
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middletom Posts: 467 |
posted 06-09-2007 03:33 PM
Kimo, At ONC we have a book put out by Handy&Harman, which explains all matters dealing with silver. That book states that one can not plate with sterling silver for in the electo-plating process the silver and the copper of the sterling separate. I assume that Handy&Harman knew whereof they wrote. But I noticed in this thread that no one else objected to the mention of plating with sterling so I'm left wonderng what the true situation is regarding that process. Does anyone know for sure? IP: Logged |
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adelapt Posts: 418 |
posted 06-09-2007 06:11 PM
My understanding of plating is the same as Middletom's, ie. the plated layer is the fine metal. It seems likely though that because the word "sterling" is seen as both reliable and reassuring, through its historical use and application to 'solid' silver (prestige)goods, it gets used rather loosely, as in this case. Since the term sterling denotes at least a minimum standard, it's probably not outright wrong to use it this way, but it is 'gilding the lily' rather. IP: Logged |
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middletom Posts: 467 |
posted 06-10-2007 09:29 AM
Actually, sterling denotes a specific alloy, not a minimum standard. To have put that word on plated piece was deception of the public. IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 06-10-2007 01:33 PM
Yes, deceiving the public was the whole idea behind the 'Sterling Plate' companies. There were quite a few of them, at least they show up in boxes of old flatware. Can anyone identify this pattern? IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 06-11-2007 10:28 AM
Hi Middletom. I can't say with 100 percent accuracy and hopefully someone here will be able to provide the definitive answer, but over the years I have seen many references to plating with sterling. This may very well be as some have posited - deception and trickery by unscrupulous plated-ware companies and salesmen, but I see it so often that I am not sure. I understand the chemistry of plating and the breakdown of the source metal into aqueous solution and deposition onto the target object, but from a pure science point of view I am not clear why an alloy like sterling would not work, though it may take some adjustment of electrical currents and the solution used to enable the silver and copper to redeposit together rather than separately. My thinking is that there is no such thing as pure silver. Most refiners are only able to get their silver to somewhere in the 99.99 percent purity range without getting uneconomical. Going beyond that that starts getting very difficult. I recall a research project I undertook in my college days when I needed some metals with at least five decimal places of purity - 99.99999 - and that stuff was incredibly expensive. My point is that even with "pure" silver, your anode is still going to be a slight alloy. It would make a fun experiment to see if a process could be developed to plate with sterling or similar alloys if such a process is not already "discovered." IP: Logged |
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anndoran Posts: 3 |
posted 06-11-2007 10:41 AM
Thanks for all your feedback regarding this cake server. I do think it is a piece from around the 20's. The handle feels the same as the Weidlich silver. My mother always says that there is a special feel when you rub silver, very silky and smooth. Not technical I know, but she said that it feels like silver to her. Either way, it's a nice cake server and will be staying with the Weidlich silverware I bought it with. Thanks again.... IP: Logged |
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middletom Posts: 467 |
posted 06-13-2007 05:39 PM
Kimo, As I understand the electro-plating process, I can see how the silver and the copper would separate. In the mid-1970s we ran into a problem with Handy&Harman on some sheets of sterling for hollowware. More than once we had it happen that the copper and silver did not mix entirely, leaving a broad streak of copper a couple inches wide across the middle of the sheet of "sterling". It was most noticable when the piece was polished. Handy&Harman claimed it could not happen because the mixing was computer controled (such faith in computers). They did take back the silver stock and that never happened again, to us ,at least, and they never admitted any error on their part So, to make a long story longer, if the two metals can be that hard to mix right, then I could see how they could separate easily. IP: Logged |
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FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 06-14-2007 09:38 AM
Is it not possible that the 6 DWT refers to the amount of sterling sheet used to cover a hollow handle on a piece like this? Can't say for sure I've seen it, but I also can't say for sure I haven't. It certainly looks like a hollow handle with a fitted blade, so that seems like a possibility. As I recall from my days playing around with electroplating, you can't plate an alloy. The trace amounts in fine silver basically just aren't visible, but the higher amounts of other metals would be visible when electroplated (has to do with the different currents corresponding to different ions, if I'm remembering my electrochemistry right after about 30 years). One could presumably use a process like with gold-filled work, but I presume that it isn't cost-effective at the lower value of silver compared to gold alloys. Of course the markings could also just be misleading, for several reasons as already mentioned.... I think that sometimes people just use the term 'sterling plated' to make it sound somehow different from silverplate. IP: Logged |
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middletom Posts: 467 |
posted 06-14-2007 06:17 PM
FWG, You are right on the money about the problems with electo-plating alloys. I spok today with Joe Gill at P.J.Gill, near Boston, a large plating company that does fine gold and silver plating. As you wrote, he said that the different metals require different electrical current amounts (that is not how he stated it) and therefore the alloyed metals separate. Kimo, I recall an ad a few years ago for a model of the first Roll Royce Silver Ghost, made by the Franklin Mint. The ad said the radiator of the model was plated with sterling silver "just like the original". Franklin Mint certainly should have known better, since they were the ones who had to plate it. IP: Logged |
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