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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 Silverplate Forum
 Need help with this trademark.
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| Author | Topic: Need help with this trademark. |
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SusanT Posts: 104 |
posted 05-06-2006 09:41 AM
  
[26-1039] I’m still working on the history, detailing, of my late mother’s silver. About a year or so ago I created a database in MS Access with such fields as Category, Item, Description, Pictures, Manufacturer, Pattern/model, Date manufacturing/date range, Date purchase/date range, Notes: <family history of the piece>, etc... I will be entering all of mother's silver, glass, china, furniture, etc... My daughter and nieces were delighted when I started about a year ago as I'm now the older generation and the last of this generation. Mother's silver will eventually be passed on to the grandchildren and ggchildren. With my keen interest in genealogy research, I am certainly enjoying the silver research. Here is another problem “child”. This piece really bothers me for I’m 95% sure it was part of a wedding gift to my parents in 1937 from my paternal grandmother. It is a 24” x 14” silverplate tea tray. Grandma gave them a monogrammed sterling silver tea service of a teapot, sugar and creamer by Alvin. I’m sure mother said Grandma included this tray for the tea set even though not of the same manufacturer. She always used this tray with the tea set. I don’t know if it was new in 1937 or a family piece of my grandmother’s. The tray is stamped with 3 letters in squares. The letters (in script) are: [S] [?] [P]. Under these squares is “Silver on Copper”. I’m not sure of the middle letter. At first I thought it was S I P, then S M P, and now possibly a scripted & or + sign in the middle??? I thought I’d have no trouble finding the manufacturer - wrong. I can’t spot it in Rainwater, Wyler, or on the Internet. TIA. IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 05-10-2006 08:23 AM
I can't help with the maker, but it's American and relatively recent. But the presence of a plated tray by a different manufacturer from a sterling service is not at all uncommon. Sterling trays were very costly, and even wealthy people didn't often acquire a matching tray with a sterling coffee and/or tea service in the 1880s-1920s. When examples of a sterling tray with a matched set appear, they are seen as particularly unusual and desirable. The Alvin set you speak of might have gone for many years without a tray, and then the plated tray you show could have been given in 1937 as a wedding gift--to support the service that they were given as an heirloom. Makes perfect sense to me. My own grandparents had a repousse coffee and tea set by Harris & Shafer from 1882, with a plated Tiffany & Co. tray given as a wedding gift in 1907. IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 05-10-2006 12:13 PM
Trays of this type have been produced in large quantities over the last 85 years. Dating them is probably not possible. I do not recognize the maker though I have seen this mark before. Marks on silverplate differ from sterling marks in one signifigant way. Silverplate marks are frequently not about the maker but about how things were sold. It is not at all unusual for a silverplate maker to put marks on pieces that would be exclusive to a certain seller. Such as a consortium of department stores, like Federated. Or even an individual store. So, identical pieces show up with all sorts of marks. Which makes our task of tracking down the maker more difficult. No one seems to have any record of this, of how it was done. Great research topic here. It would involve going through old ads, getting a visual take of recurring silver, then hunting to see if any of these showed in old maker's catalogs. First, you need to have access to the ads, then to the catalogs. Big job, but it would be fun to do. (China collectors have done this already on many of the makers.) One thing I keep refering to is that silverplate marks are Brand Names not maker's marks. The system is fundamentally different from that used on sterling and coin, in the US at least. The big 19th century makers were early brand names; they developed a following based on their branded products. One reason that plated trays are found with sterling sets is that plate being on steel is stronger than sterling. It is less likely to be damaged in a mishap. I have seen many sterling trays with dents and dimples, which rarely happens with plate. A consideration when thinking of how Bridget the maid handles things. [This message has been edited by Dale (edited 05-11-2006).] IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 05-11-2006 02:51 AM
I have a tea set with a matching sterling tray to three pieces of it, but to the coffee pot there is a different matching plated trivet. [This message has been edited by outwest (edited 05-11-2006).] IP: Logged |
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SusanT Posts: 104 |
posted 05-11-2006 01:07 PM
Ulysses, Your right! The cost of a sterling tray would have been prohibited in the 1930s - midst of the depression! I'm sure the tea set was not a hand-me-down for my aunt used to tell of being with my grandmother when she picked it out at a department store in Providence and had it monogrammed with my parents initials. Dale, My old eyes aren't 100% sure of the middle letter of this mark. At first I thought it was "SIP", then "SMP". I now doubt the middle letter is an "M" for it is narrower than the "S" and "P". In script an "M" is usually wider. Now I am wondering if it is a scripted "&" of "+". It is hard searching the web for these marks: "SIP" brings up lots of sipping sites; "SMP" brings up the many webpages of this silver site; and "S+P" or "S&P" brings up all the S&P index sites and silver futures. If it is "S&P", the closest I've found would be Simmons & Paye (S. & P.) but Rainwater's illustration is nothing like mine and she says they made souvenir spoons and were out of business by 1891. At this point, just knowing for sure what the letters are will suffice. >... put marks on pieces that would be exclusive to a certain seller.< Very interesting! A bit like seeing the store brands of today or the "Kenmore" appliances in Sears. >One reason that plated trays are found with sterling sets is that plate being on steel is stronger than sterling.< An excellent reason in good or bad times. Thank you both for your very informative replies. --- Susan [This message has been edited by SusanT (edited 05-11-2006).] IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 05-11-2006 01:29 PM
The center letter is definately a blackletter M. I would suggest that the mark represents M(xxx) S(ilver) P(late); the layout following the old monogram convention. This would be an alternative to M S P, which was already used by the Meriden and Middleton Silverplate Companies. No closer to naming the company, but a thought. IP: Logged |
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salmoned Posts: 336 |
posted 05-11-2006 03:29 PM
I take exception to this discussion of plated trays being "stronger" than sterling. Plated trays are usually, as in this case, silver plated onto copper [or white metal], and not plated onto steel. If a sterling tray becomes dented where a plated tray wouldn't, it's not due to the softness of the metal so much as the thickness (or lack thereof). Not to say I have much experience with silver-plated items, but I don't think I'd buy anything along that line which would respond to a magnet. Oops, I guess I did buy a silver-plated steel ice tongs, but it came with a sterling sugar tongs that was the real purchase. [This message has been edited by salmoned (edited 05-11-2006).] IP: Logged |
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FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 05-11-2006 04:39 PM
With all due respect, a plated - silver on copper - tray is inherently 'stronger' than a sterling tray. I'm not convinced it's necessarily greatly stronger, but since (a) copper is 'harder' (for present purposes, less malleable) than silver (and nickel-silver is harder still, to take another common base metal), and (b) the construction of a plated tray is typically heavier than that of a sterling tray (for reasons of cost, with exceptions such as some of the heavy Mexican examples, of course), it is undeniable that a plated tray of remotely equivalent design is stronger than a sterling one. However: rather than a simple question of strength or cost alone, I think it's better to model the decision as a balancing of issues of strength/usability, cost/value, and design/aesthetics. And I think this is actually implicit in most of the comments in these discussions. [This message has been edited by FWG (edited 05-11-2006).] IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 05-11-2006 04:57 PM
I have seen loads of silverplate trays and they rarely ever have dents or dimples. They do have a tendancy towards handle damage though: the handles are usually cast and can be broken if hit hard enough. IP: Logged |
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SusanT Posts: 104 |
posted 05-13-2006 01:50 PM
Wev, > M(xxx) S(ilver) P(late)< Now there's a thought: sMp as opposed to SMP. Scouting around came up with at least 1 possibility: Melody Silver Plate, once a trademark of International. Thank you for the idea. Salmoned, FWG and Dale, thank you for the discussion on the strength of sterling versus plated. All of my, my mother's and other family members sterling services are on plated trays. While getting one of the trays replated last year, asked the silversmith if he had any experience with large sterling trays with services. He answered, no, saying impractical. He didn't elaborate. --- Susan [This message has been edited by SusanT (edited 05-13-2006).] IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 05-14-2006 12:19 AM
Melody is an IS mark that appears on one flatware pattern made in 1954. Beyond that, I don't know what it was used on. Melody appears to have been premium wear, gotten with coupons, labels or some other scheme. Interesting what the smith said. I have rarely seen sterling sets with sterling trays, but there are some. IP: Logged |
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SusanT Posts: 104 |
posted 05-14-2006 06:25 PM
Dale, When the smith said "impractical", I got the feeling he didn't mean for himself but that it was impractical for Joe Public to have/invest in a sterling tray for use with full or tea services. He gave me the impressive it was a silly question soooo I didn't push the issue. Thanks you for the info on Melody. I'm going to keep my eyes peeled for this trademark only because the tray meant so much to my mother in my early years. It was the first large tray of her own and in my early years she always had it on the sideboard with the tea service. In later years she acquired several more good size trays with better "pedigrees" but never pushed this one out the door. --- Susan IP: Logged |
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FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 05-16-2006 03:21 PM
For an example of a solid silver tray with a teaset, see the example I posted here: This example is .850 silver, which would be considerably stronger than sterling, and is also pretty heavy. IP: Logged |
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salmoned Posts: 336 |
posted 05-18-2006 09:30 PM
No, I still dispute the idea that silver-plated copper is inherently stronger than sterling, given equal thickness of material (meaning the sterling example must be about 15% heavier). Granted, an example of equal weight may be significantly more prone to damage, but the cause would be more due to the thinner material (or poor workmanship) than to being a 'weaker' material in itself. See the following chart: Ultimate Tensile Strength (PSI in thousands) Material / Soft / 1/2 Hard / Full Hard / Spring Hard Sterling / 40.5 / 54 / 66.5 / 89 Pure Silver/ 26 / 41 / 45 / 51 Pure Copper/ 33 / 45 / 55 / 66 BTW, that is a rather nice tea set! [This message has been edited by salmoned (edited 05-18-2006).] IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 05-18-2006 10:18 PM
And this thread with a sterling tray of mine: 1920's Art Deco teaset IP: Logged |
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SusanT Posts: 104 |
posted 05-18-2006 11:06 PM
FWT and Outwest, thank you for sharing pics of your silver services. Salmoned, thank you for the UTS of these materials. --- Susan IP: Logged |
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FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 05-19-2006 10:09 AM
What exactly is ultimate tensile strength measuring? I can't remember from my physics days many years ago, but it seems likely from the phrase that it's ability to withstand being pulled without failure. My assertion was based simply on experience hammering the two metals (equally many years ago) -- copper is harder to work than silver, just as silver is harder to work than gold (I always envied the people who could afford to work in gold back when I was doing metalworking, because they had it so much easier in forging). If I'm right that UTS is effectively malleability, then these two aren't in conflict but point to the same characteristics. But I'd still argue that the choice of material is a balancing of different factors rather than a simple one-dimensional choice.... [This message has been edited by FWG (edited 05-19-2006).] IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 05-19-2006 04:40 PM
Many silverplated trays are on nickle steel. What is the comparison in tensil strength for this? IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 05-20-2006 01:05 PM
quote: Dictionary definition of tensile strength: "The greatest longitudinal strength a substance can bear without tearing asunder." "Ultimate tensile strength" may be a precise measure of the maximum force that must be exerted just as the resistance of the material to breaking or tearing is overcome (the point of failure). Such properties of these metals as ductility (malleabilty) and elasticity (resistance to deformation) also must be considered in regard to resistance to denting or other deformations sustained short of the breaking or tearing point. When someone asks which metal is the strongest or hardest, they are probably not interested in what to them are these technical subtleties - they just want to know which metals resist damage the best. IP: Logged |
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salmoned Posts: 336 |
posted 05-20-2006 03:20 PM
I'm not prepared to provide an exhaustive dissertation on tensile strength, but suffice to say it's a fairly accurate measure of ductility, which can vary as indicated by the categories above (soft, 1/2 hard, etc.). Clearly from the chart, and from my limited personal experience, sterling is harder to work than copper, and copper is harder to work than fine silver [when considering only the magnitude of force required to displace the materials]. As for white metals, each variation will have somewhat different properties and proper testing results of the material (as in the manufacturer's chart above) is necessary to make a rigorous statement on that subject. However, I have some stamped white metal soup spoons labeled, "Solid Peru Silver", which are remarkably weak (bendable) when compared with sterling spoons of similar cross-section (admittedly anecdotal). In any case, I believe I have shown that a sterling tray of the same form and workmanship as that of a silver-plated copper tray will be stronger and less apt to physical damage, which was my starting assertion. Addendum - GungaDin12345, all I can say is that there ARE indeed silver-plated steel objects (my ice tongs being a prime example) and I consider them to be a cut below in quality to silver-plated copper or white metals, excepting when the steel has a utilitarian purpose. [This message has been edited by salmoned (edited 05-25-2006).] IP: Logged |
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GungaDin12345 Posts: 39 |
posted 05-24-2006 07:08 AM
SALMONED: You wrote, "Not to say I have much experience with silver-plated items, but I don't think I'd buy anything along that line which would respond to a magnet." IP: Logged |
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