posted 06-08-2008 08:15 AM            

Yesterday I've bought this one, with the price was also only the little information (time indication)around 1890. Like I always do is searching for stamps of course! Until know I've found a letter at the bottom rand and a number(3228) what stands also in the bottom. In the center of the bottom around the number there a lot of scratches, letters and initials and figures a mention a few:figures numbers :350 and 404 edf in the rand.

In the outside rand/rim? of the bottom stands a year letter? R . Like you can see it has a profile of a bearded face placed on the handle, the decoration is beautiful done (if it is hand engraved?) or is it made by machinery, because inside you can see the negative decoration. Is this goblet made with older looking decoration( a remade of certain style?)

The horizontal lines are not made in a straight line. Did they made it like this for to look older and how did they can do this by machinery?. What I hope of course that it is still made by hand engraving because they make differences seeing the four decorations at the outside. Inside the goblet where the handle is placed the negative decoration is flat. The inside standard ring is soldered at the bottom of the goblet itself.(I think). Of course initials can't be found out,but who made them, owners or are they auction numbers or numbers of inventarisation for this one.

Did they always scratch this kind of silvered? goblets, because when it is not high valued it wasn't necessary I thought.

So my interest is:
Which silver factory or silversmith has made this one.( or silverplate factory ? )

In which country is it made and in which period (letter R?).

What is the name for this kind of decoration?

Is there any story behind the profile of the bearded man.

I hope some one can tell me something about this goblet.

posted 06-08-2008 08:33 AM            

To me, your mug (likely a child's mug) has the appearance of American silver plate circa 1870, although I can't tell for sure from just a picture. If so, it was probably made by one of the large silver plate factories (such as Reed and Barton in Massachusetts or Meriden in Connecticut) for a retailer (sometimes these makers did not sign their wares). The number on the bottom is a model or pattern number. The other stamped character, "R" or whatever it is, is some other code. The scratched numbers are most likely pricing codes. Sometimes if a piece is solid silver these scratched figures also indicate the weight of the piece. I don't know what the scratched lines are--somebody may have tested the mug for silver content, they just be abrasions, or something else entirely.

There is no real significance to the bearded man on the handle. It is just a decorative cast medallion. The mug was made when such medallions were popular decorative motifs. All of the other decoration seems to be hand-engraved.
I hope this helps.

posted 06-08-2008 10:07 AM            

I will visit websites and look for the names you gave of R&B or Meriden. If it's one of them it's my first official American piece. So the mug stands in the glass show case. If I have still more information about (after knowing which factories it can be, like you told,I will react again at this topic.

posted 06-08-2008 08:16 PM            

Some of the decoration does appear to be hand done. Lots of US silver has this feature. Jewelers trained apprentices by engraving plated pieces. Which is why the quality of work varies so much.

posted 06-09-2008 06:50 AM            

At first thank you also for your reaction. I have some doubts about your opinion. The line which is used for indication something should be wrong about production is a ? to me. When I use a good lens I see the scratch and it's a part of a letter T. I also can't find any mistakes which should be made by production. So until know I see two opinions R&B or Meriden not always used their names at pleet production, or it should be a second production? When a factory made wrong production I think they shouldn't bring it on the market.

The period of production is made between 1870 and 1920 that I understood well.

When I look at the ornamental decoration it looks like the 18th or 17th century, so it is a copy out of that period?(Not for the pattern of course!). I also think (like no experts thoughts of course from my side) that the handle is very unpractical size for children. Little hands couldn't have a good clutch of the handle. I don't think also that the figured bearded man brought a lot of fun by the children?

I try to make a better photo of the bottom so you can see what I try to explain from my side. My question : Which substance metal is used by these factories in the U.S.A.for producing these mugs.

Is it possible to send a picture of another mug or other pleated object with the same decoration style? I hope you will react about my thoughts, thank you Dale.

posted 06-09-2008 08:51 AM            

Left of the letter R in the rim/rand is also hardly to identify some letters, I try to check them also.

posted 06-09-2008 12:35 PM            

In either case, I think it is silver plated and not pure silver. There are no silver markings on it - just a model/pattern number which is what is normally seen on silver plated objects.

I do not think any of the scratched in markings have any meaning with regard to the manufacuring of this little goblet other than the deep scratch through the model/pattern number. I would agree with Dale that this is most likely a cancellation marking by the factory to indicate it is a factory second and for some reason did not meet the requirements of the factory. Unless a factory is very famous for its quality, they often do sell 'seconds' that do not meet their quality control requirements. Sometimes by the time such a 'second' is worn through use or abuse the problem is no longer visible because of all of the wear on the object.

Hand scratched markings on more modern silverplated objects such as this are normally added by either the retail stores or by subsequent owners. If a company is going to add markings they will use dies such as the ones used for the model/pattern number. It is too much work for them to add markings by hand to everything they make.

posted 06-09-2008 02:40 PM            

Thanks for your reaction I check it twice to understand everything. I agree with Paul because he recognized it like a American piece and told that silver marks not always has placed on silvered/pleet objects. I've bought also some vases without marks on it and they were also silvered. So I think in each countries some factories (forget?) to put their mark into their produced silvered objects. Of course I understand when it is cheap made, but in this case I found it a nice piece and full of decorated ornaments and think it had it's value those days.

I will look further to find perhaps a photo of patterns which looks like this one. Because Paul recognize the bearded handle I hope someone can show another look like!

posted 06-09-2008 03:54 PM            

I have owned silver child's cups from this period with even larger handles. And they featured inscriptions to or about children, so they were child's cups. As for finding a mass-produced American silver plate mug in Holland, I don't see why that is so hard to believe. I once found a late 1600s Dutch silver marriage spoon in the middle of New Hampshire.

posted 01-21-2009 07:18 AM            

This bearded person head stood at a Gorham sterling Bust punch ladle,of course there are many silver items decorated with the bearded face but I didn't saw one until today.

When I read the topic again I only doubt why they engraved this mug so well and decorated it and was this kind of decoration normal done by silverplated items. I learn also that in Holland the pattern numbers are not marked at silverware, so it's more difficult to find out pattern names.

But here is the result of a long research.

posted 07-16-2009 05:54 PM            

Here is the answer from Reed&Barton experts:

quote:

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"Hello,
It certainly is quite a piece. However, I didn't see Reed & Barton stamped on the bottom.

If it is not stamped, than it is not our product."

So it helps to keep on searching and I found it nice to get a reaction from one of the good names (firms) from America, concerning the silver industry.

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