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tline3open  Ludwig/Redlich vs. William Linker

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Author Topic:   Ludwig/Redlich vs. William Linker
lrlss

Posts: 18
Registered: May 2011

iconnumber posted 05-28-2011 10:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lrlss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi everybody. I'm a new member and became interested in silver on a quest to identify a silver spoon. On the way I came across the beautiful "leaf" works of Shiebler, Ludwig, and Linker. I'm still very confused about one thing. Would someone be able to tell me how one differentiates between William Linker's and Adolf Ludwig's (Ludwig/Redlich) pieces, as they both share the same fleur-de-lis mark and seem to be stylistically similar? Would it be possible to show examples of each, noting the differences, please? Thank you.

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 05-28-2011 10:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
These references might help the discussion:

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lrlss

Posts: 18
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iconnumber posted 05-29-2011 12:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lrlss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, I've seen both. (In fact the "Shiebler-Redlich Connection" post and then an article in Silver Magazine called "Dining With Bugs" led me to finally identify that first spoon.)

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lrlss

Posts: 18
Registered: May 2011

iconnumber posted 06-13-2011 05:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lrlss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So can anyone tell me how to distinguish between the two?

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bascall

Posts: 1629
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iconnumber posted 06-14-2011 01:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is just one persons opinion, but I don't believe William Linker himself registered a trademark.

The Encyclopedia of American Silver Manufacturers by Dorothy T Rainwater & Martin and Colette Fuller Revised 5th Edition states the following concerning William Linker Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: Registered trademark in the U S Patent Office No 55,945, August 21, 1906 for gold and silver flatware, holloware and tableware. I believe that ultimately this number and date relates to a filing for a patent only.

There are no records of any patents registered on August 21, 1906, and I find no trademarks registered to or associated with William linker.

This could just turn out to be a typo, so I would be very interested in seeing anything that gives a better explanation of William Linker's trademark.

[This message has been edited by bascall (edited 06-14-2011).]

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lrlss

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iconnumber posted 06-16-2011 08:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lrlss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for your response. Then I can assume that pieces with the fleur-de-lis are all Ludwig/Redlich's (even though several are listed as William Linker's)?

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bascall

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iconnumber posted 06-16-2011 08:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For myself the answer is a clear yes, but for anyone else, I can only suggest caution.

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lrlss

Posts: 18
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iconnumber posted 06-16-2011 08:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lrlss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dear Bascall,
I was just notified that your response was posted, but it's not showing up on my computer.

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lrlss

Posts: 18
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iconnumber posted 06-18-2011 06:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lrlss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dear Bascall, Your response finally came through! (What is it with these message boards?...) Anyway...Would you (or would anyone else) have any photos of Linker's works -- especially spoons -- so I could see how they differ from the Ludwig/Redlichs?

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bascall

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iconnumber posted 06-18-2011 07:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm sorry, but I don't have any silver that I would know should be attributed to William Linker. Nor do I know of any silver that I would agree at this point should be. It is clear to me that he was a very capable silverware manufacturing manager, and beyond that I know very little.

It appears that he never married, so he didn't have children which is something that definitely silences the memory of many.

If there's more to this story, it is beyond me, so hopefully, a knowledgeable person will come forward and clear this matter up for you.

[This message has been edited by bascall (edited 06-18-2011).]

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dragonflywink

Posts: 993
Registered: Dec 2002

iconnumber posted 06-20-2011 05:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for dragonflywink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi lrlss, welcome to the forums.

Not at home right now to check my 4th edition Rainwater, but seem to recall there is a Linker mark illustrated which is very similar to the Ludwig, Redlich fleur-de-lis (believe another reference shows one similar as a Kerr mark). Feel sure that, relying on Rainwater, I've mistakenly identified some Ludwig, Redlich pieces as Linker, and surely others have done the same - seems clear that with advertising of the period showing both the trademark and the distinctive pieces, attribution to anyone other than Ludwig, Redlich wouldn't really make sense. Have seen a couple of fairly pedestrian holloware pieces with a small, less detailed fleur-de-lis mark, suspect they're probably the later Linker pieces.

My references are riddled with little corrections, additions and clarifications, including quite a few in Rainwater, but she was a pretty good researcher and I believe that her information on the Linker trademark is most likely correct. Had no luck in locating the Linker registration, but have noticed from previous searches in the Trademark Office's TESS database, that a large number of the early trademarks that weren't renewed before the mid 20th century seem to be missing. A search for trademarks registered on August 21, 1906 turned up thirty-two, with numbers ranging from 55598 to 56105, the Linker registration number cited would fit into that range. In those found, thirty had registration renewals no earlier than 1966; number 55886 had no renewal, but a cancellation date of 1977; number 56035 also had no renewal, but shows an undated change in registration and the owners listed as unknown (perhaps someone's research triggered its inclusion into the database).

~Cheryl

[This message has been edited by dragonflywink (edited 06-20-2011).]

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bascall

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iconnumber posted 06-20-2011 09:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A listing for William Linker's company would be encouraging as far as the possibility of a trademark is concerned.

If the USPTO purged their dead trademark registrations, they were certainly haphazard about it.

I believe that the date and number cited by "Rainwater" relates to a filing for a patent. That number is right in line with a patent filing serial number that has the same date and did end up the with a registered patent.

[This message has been edited by bascall (edited 06-20-2011).]

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Paul Lemieux

Posts: 1792
Registered: Apr 2000

iconnumber posted 06-20-2011 11:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul Lemieux     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As Cheryl notes, there is a fleur-de-lys mark that was used by Wm Kerr as well. I have seen this mark once, on an Art Nouveau Kerr item that I had seen several times before with the typical fasces mark. I have often seen Ludwig, Redlich & Co. pieces misattributed to Kerr.

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dragonflywink

Posts: 993
Registered: Dec 2002

iconnumber posted 06-20-2011 01:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dragonflywink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Certainly not saying that the Trademark Office has purged the dead registrations (only 7 out of those 32 found were still live), but will suggest that the TESS database is clearly not complete and that, from personal observation, the ones I've researched have had some sort of activity from the mid 20th century or later. Patents and Trademarks are issued on Tuesdays, and the numbers are officially published at that point - seems unlikely that Linker's trademark had a number within the sequence for other Tuesday, August 21, 1906 trademarks unless it was also issued at that point. Regardless, the existence of a trademark doesn't necessarily indicate that Linker actually produced any silver bearing some version of the fleur-de-lis mark that was passed on from Davis & Galt, though the registration seems to indicate that he was, and also continuing to use the Davis & Galt name - the accompanying mark illustration seems to be unavailable online, but Rainwater usually took them from her source, if available (sorry, still unable to access my copy).

It does seem clear that the mark found on the pieces up for discussion here belonged to Ludwig, Redlich.

~Cheryl

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bascall

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iconnumber posted 06-20-2011 01:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well I've got egg all over my face. William Linker did get the Davis & Galt trademark assigned to himself, but so far as I can tell didn't start up a business by another name.

Thank you for the trademark Cheryl. We did get somebody that knows what they are talking about Irlss. I had no idea how incomplete the TESS is. I do like "Rainwater," but I have trouble putting too much faith in most publications.

[This message has been edited by bascall (edited 06-20-2011).]

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Cheryl and Richard

Posts: 154
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 07-04-2011 12:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cheryl and Richard     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We have seen pieces with the fleur-de-lis, the chimera and the Shiebler wings marks, and you have already seen the photos we posted on the thread 'The Shiebler - Redlich Connection.' All of them appear to have been made by the same smith, whom we believe to be Adolf Ludwig.

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lrlss

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iconnumber posted 07-04-2011 04:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lrlss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you all so much for your responses.

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lrlss

Posts: 18
Registered: May 2011

iconnumber posted 07-06-2011 11:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lrlss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Is this an example of a Ludwig/Redlich being mistaken for a Linker?

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Cheryl and Richard

Posts: 154
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 07-31-2011 02:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cheryl and Richard     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To us, that appears to be the work of Adolph Ludwig.

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Sgt Silver

Posts: 41
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 08-13-2011 05:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sgt Silver     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Perhaps this is a piece by Linker. This salt spoon - 3.5 inches long - has no similarity to pieces by Adolph Ludwig or William B Kerr.

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Paul Lemieux

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Registered: Apr 2000

iconnumber posted 08-15-2011 10:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul Lemieux     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i would guess redlich. it looks like a poor man's version of shiebler's flora. (a. ludwig was formerly a shiebler designer).

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lrlss

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Registered: May 2011

iconnumber posted 02-14-2012 01:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lrlss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you all for your interesting responses. I just love these Ludwig/Redlich pieces and wish to collect them. As they are almost always not identified correctly, I've found a number of them (attributed to Linker, Bigelow & Kennard, and Davis & Galt). But I'd like to find more and don't know where to look, as they show up so rarely in auctions (and online auctions). As a new member here, I can't post on your "Wanted" thread. Does anyone here know where these pieces can be found?

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11520
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 02-14-2012 02:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
See: How to get posting privileges in the other SSF public forums

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lrlss

Posts: 18
Registered: May 2011

iconnumber posted 02-14-2012 10:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lrlss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you for your response. I'd be happy to post, however, as a "newbie" to collecting Ludwig/Redlich pieces (and silver in general), I simply don't know very much. And as for posting photos, most of the pieces I now have, have already been photographed in other posts on this site. I do have one more question regarding this thread... What happened to Adolph Ludwig after he left his partnership with Alec Redlich? I can't find anything about him past that point.

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Cheryl and Richard

Posts: 154
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 02-26-2012 02:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cheryl and Richard     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Irlss, as your collection grows, you'll probably be able to identify the work of Adolf Ludwig before you see the mark. And when you see a fleur-de-lys, that it may or may not be his work.
The mark of William Kerr is notably different from the Ludwig mark.

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lrlss

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iconnumber posted 02-26-2012 10:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lrlss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dear Cheryl & Richard,
Yes. I see that is already happening. ;-)
But Ludwig's pieces seem to be so rare, and so difficult to find (and the ones I have found, I stumbled on largely by chance -- with all but two of them mistakenly attributed to others).
Historically, do you happen to know what became of Ludwig after his partnership with Redlich ended? (Did he die at that point? Did he go on to work elsewhere?) I have just become intrigued by his art, and would love to find out more about him. I'd also like to find more of his pieces.

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 11-26-2012 08:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
JCK - May 6, 1908

quote:
    Friends Pay Last Tribute
    to the Late Adolph Ludwig


A large number of jewelers attended the funeral of the late Adolph Ludwig, senior member of the firm of A. Ludwig & Son, 75 Nassau St., New York, which took place last Thursday from his late home, 51 E. 122d St., Manhattan. The funeral was in charge of Socrates Lodge No. 595, F. and A. M. of New York.

Mention was made in last week’s issue of the death of Mr. Ludwig, who was well known in the jewelry trade. He was born in Middlewalt, Germany, 61 years ago, and when a young man came to this country, after learning his trade. He secured employment and in time built up a business of his own. He had been in business for himself and in partnership with his son, Charles Ludwig, in New York, for 30 years.

Besides being a Mason Mr. Ludwig belonged to the Odd Fellows, the Knights of the Ladies of Honor and to a number of sporting and shooting clubs. Many beautiful floral offerings were sent to his bier by the different organizations to which he belonged. His surviving relatives include a widow, three daughters and five sons. The interment took place at Woodlawn Cemetery. Rev. J. H. Stone was the officiating clergyman.

The business will be continued under the old style by Mr. Ludwig’s sons.


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lrlss

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iconnumber posted 11-26-2012 09:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lrlss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you so very much for posting that obit of Adolph Ludwig. I am confused about a few things. If he died in 1908, how could he have been in business for himself and with his son for 30 years? (Wasn't the Ludwig Redlich firm in business from 1890-95? And isn't it odd that there's no mention of Shiebler or Redlich in the obit?) But it does answer some questions. We now know he had children, and it looks as if when he left Redlich he started another business with his son. Please let me know if you find out anything else. I really appreciate your help in discovering more about this wonderful artist.

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 11-27-2012 11:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Redlich ad in JC&HR 8/5/1891

    Adolph or Adolf

There is Adolph Ludwig of Brooklyn, New York and there is Adolf Ludwig of Hoboken, New Jersey. Maybe one of genealogists can figure out if they are the same person?

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lrlss

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iconnumber posted 11-27-2012 09:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lrlss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And perhaps a third -- this Adolph Ludwig of Manhattan?
(neither Brooklyn nor Hoboken)
Back to the drawing board...

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wev
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iconnumber posted 11-27-2012 10:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
1870 census NYC:
Adolph Ludwick, silversmith, born Prussia 1842
Amina, wife, born Canada 1843

1880 census Brooklyn
Adolph Ludwig, manufacturer of Masonic medals, born Germany 1843
Wilhenna, wife, born Canada 1844

1900 census Brooklyn:
Adolph Ludwig, silversmith, born Prussia March 1843
Wilhelmina, wife, born Canada May 1843

[This message has been edited by wev (edited 11-27-2012).]

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bascall

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iconnumber posted 12-25-2012 01:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by lrlss:
And perhaps a third -- this Adolph Ludwig of Manhattan?
(neither Brooklyn nor Hoboken)
Back to the drawing board...


I'm satisfied that there were three gentlemen with the same name working in related businesses at the same time. The one that is mentioned in the Jeweler's Circular article was born in about 1847. The one that was born in 1843 appears in later census's in Brooklyn. The one in Hoboken was born in about 1857 and immigrated in about 1880. So far as I can tell thus far he dealt in medals and brass products.

I didn't pay any attention to what time I wrote this reply last night; Merry Christmas to all!

[This message has been edited by bascall (edited 12-25-2012).]

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