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| Author | Topic: Historical Silverware ? |
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Snigley Posts: 5 |
posted 12-21-2011 09:19 PM
  
Recently a friend inherited a silver set that was supposedly returned from Germany by his father from WWII. It's a complete service for 10 in the case. We've tried to research it on the internet and have found some information about it. It appears to have been manufactured by Argentor-Werke in Vienna. What we haven't been able to confirm is whether or not the markings are pre or post war. Each type of utensil has a unique number, but the same maker's marks. If original, this set may have considerable historical significance as it has an unusual monogram. I'd really like to get some opinions on the maker's mark before discussing the monogram. If it's a post war mark, then the monogram really doesn't matter. Hopefully you guys can give us some assistance as we're currently stuck on high center. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
[Welcome to the Silver Salon Forums. Your friend should join the forums and participate. IP: Logged |
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Snigley Posts: 5 |
posted 12-22-2011 12:24 AM
Thanks for the welcome. Unfortunately my friend is completely PC illiterate (doesn't own one) which is why I'm posting. As is obvious, we are very neophyte when it comes to silver collecting, and found this forum while trying to research his flatware. From what little we were able to find, it appears this company changed their logo around WWII and we are hoping one of the members here can help us out on when this mark was used. If this turns out to be a pre WWII mark, I'll post some additional photos of the monogram which should spur some additional discussion. Thanks for your assistance. IP: Logged |
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Postnikov Posts: 133 |
posted 12-22-2011 07:10 PM
Hi - The manufacturer is as you already stated the Austrian firm ARGENTOR-Werke, Rust & Hetzel, Wien VII/62 Kaiserstraße 83 Regards IP: Logged |
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Snigley Posts: 5 |
posted 12-22-2011 11:12 PM
When we began to research this flatware setting, the first thing we stumbled on was the uniqueness and possible historical significance of the monogram. Our research indicated that the initials EB, in the shape of a butterfly, were the trademark of Eva Braun during the WWII era. Each piece in this set has this monogram hand engraved on it. Being able to confirm that the makers' mark on the reverse is actually a WWII era mark would be a big help in establishing originality, thus our request for your assistance. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 12-23-2011 01:09 AM
Hi and welcome to the forum. Could you please let us know if your friend has any intention of selling this flatware and is researching to do so or is he or she a collector of flatware? Thanks, IP: Logged |
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Postnikov Posts: 133 |
posted 12-23-2011 05:54 AM
Hi - the internet is full of Eva Braun`s silver, furnitures and personal belongings - mostly they are fakes. Just google "monogram eva brown". In the 70´s I visited an auction selling most of her leftover belongings, loot from US soldiers or citizens of Berchtesgaden who "liberated" her personal things from Obersalzberg. There was no big interest in the absolute common things, exept from US dealers and collectors.The original monogram looks different, the silver was really silver (8oo) and not plated. But there is always someone who will buy cheap quality with a big story for much money. Good luck! Regards IP: Logged |
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Postnikov Posts: 133 |
posted 12-23-2011 06:03 AM
Hi - when you recherche the internet and the offered "silver" (often only plated, cheap flatware)you will realise that her hosehold must have been gigantic - flatware and hollowware for X-hundred persons. Regards IP: Logged |
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Snigley Posts: 5 |
posted 12-23-2011 08:16 AM
Actually, I thought we were using some common sense which is why I really didn't want to show the monogram until we got a timeframe on the maker's mark. While having it returned home by a veteran doesn't make it authentic, it wasn't made in India last month. If you have no idea about the timeframe of the maker's mark, fine, just indulge us with a little of the common sense you expound. IP: Logged |
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Postnikov Posts: 133 |
posted 12-23-2011 08:58 AM
Hi - here the title of a book about Argentor: Google is your friend! Regards IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 12-23-2011 09:04 AM
Postnikov, Thanks for sharing. I realize that English is not your first language therefore your "common sense" comment may seen borderline impolite. I am sure it was not intended. Snigley, quote:In the yellow box: quote: Without full disclosure, your inquiry is coming across like business research. Our SSF forum members are interested in cultivating persons who have or will develop a passion for discussing silver/precious metal arts. Often our new members jump to conclusions about what they have and the resulting "I might have a treasure/discovery... I am going get rich..." then New Member is not participating in the same way the rest of our membership does. If you are doing research for potential sale,then Postnikov has been very generous and his comment might not be too far off. IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 12-23-2011 10:20 AM
If the marks on your flatware had predated the death of Eva Braun you would have some evidence that the flatware was her property. However the monogram could have been added to old flatware just to confuse buyers. Usually the only evidence that convinces a serious buyer is whether the items are clearly listed in the inventory of the deceased and there is a paper trail that traces subsequent ownership. I think you are on to why research on old silver is fun. There are a lot of trails to go down and along the way you meet the most interesting people. Good luck in your future research. IP: Logged |
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Snigley Posts: 5 |
posted 12-23-2011 05:29 PM
Sorry for my failure to perform a more comprehensive introduction. I'm not really a flatware collector, but someone who enjoys antiques in general. When my friend and his mother brought this service down from their attic, they were considering selling it for scrap. When his father brought it home after WWII, his mom wouldn't use it because it had someone else's initials on it. His outlook was that they haven't used it for 50 years, so why worry about it now. This is where I became involved by suggesting that some antique silver was worth far more than melt and he really should research it. While doing a search on German silverware, we came across a piece of Eva Braun flatware for sale, and thus recognized the EB butterfly pattern. As has been pointed out, there appears to be no shortage of EB silverware running around, so we decided to try and determine if what they have is authentic. He is getting his father's military records to see if he was ever anywhere where he could have actually procured a real set of flatware, and I've been trying to research the maker. That search led me here. As far as being able to ever determine positive ownership, it doesn't look good. The set itself has gone from scrap to priceless heirloom so I doubt that they would ever sell it. This site was one of the last possibilities for getting information on the maker's mark, so unless they want to buy the book, my participation may be over. I would like to thank everyone for their patience and information. I'll try and post a photo of the full set in the box just to let everyone see what we're dealing with. Thanks again for your support. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 12-24-2011 10:43 AM
As has been mentioned, it is not silver so it has no scrap or bullion value. This would also mean that it is quite unlikely that it is what it is trying to be because a person of Ms. Braun's status would have had real silver. From what I can see, at best it is either something that the father/husband was fooled by a scam at some point into believing the fake monogram and buying it as a 'secret treasure', or it is something that he stole from an ordinary household during the war and either it was already monogrammed or he had the monograms added. Neither of these I would think is something your friend and his mother would place much sentimental value on - evidence that the father/husband was either conned into spending his money buying a cheap fake at some point in his life, or that he committed a criminal act of wartime theft from some household of modest means. IP: Logged |
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