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Piratess Posts: 16 |
posted 06-26-2012 06:24 AM
  
[26-2305] Hello! This is my first post, so, I should introduce myself. My name is Karin, actually that's part of my name, but many folks cut it off there, so, I won't bore with the long version. I'm 23 years old, and I'm from the Netherlands. I like silver, antique silver things. Some of it is really beautiful with pretty decorations. Believe it or not, I like to polish silver or plated things. Sometimes I like to find out a little bit more about some thing I come across. A little plate I have, possibly silver plated, brought me here. I'm hoping someone can tell a little bit more about the mark on it. But I'll ask about it later, when I find out where the question should be posted. Bye, IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 06-26-2012 10:31 AM
Welcome to the silver forum, Karin, and thank you for introducing yourself. We are a small group of people from different places around the world who enjoy talking about silver and silver plate, sharing photos with each other of these beautiful things that we have in our collections, and learning from each other. The correct place to ask about your little plate is here, in this part of the Silver Forum. New members must post everything in this section. If you stay with the Forum for a while you will then be given electronic permission to post in the other parts of the Forum. Of course, until that happens you are free to read every section. When you post your question about your plate, please be sure to include some nice clear photos, of the overall plate, and also a close up photo of any markings or interesting features. There are instructions on how to post photos in the yellow box near the top of every page. Photos are required since they allow everyone to share in admiring your plate, and because there are so many markings that are similar or sometimes even added later to fool people. Just describing the markings are not sufficient for anyone to be able to say very much. Also, please keep in mind the rule here that we do not ask for values and we do not use this site to obtain information that will be used to sell the object. We are happy to call you Karin if that is your wish, but we are also happy to use your complete given name if you prefer. As I said, we have people from all over the world here and most of us would have no difficulty with a Dutch name if you would like us to use it. Whatever you prefer is fine with us. I look forward to your participating in the Silver Forum. Kimo IP: Logged |
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Piratess Posts: 16 |
posted 06-26-2012 02:36 PM
quote: Hi Kimo!! Wow, I never had such a long and polite welcome I don't have a lot of silver, but maybe some nice things I can post if you want. Some leftovers from the stuff my parents left me, the usual antique coins, spoons, a toothpick, little wallets, I'll get to that. But, back to what brought me here, the little plate. My first question would be, how do I know if its actually plated? Its not full silver, I'm sure, its not hallmarked, and all silver is hallmarked, yes? It has a mark tho', from the maker, and, I very much like to find out who made it!! Oh btw, I don't care how much its worth, my uncle gave it to me, and I'm not selling. Its part of a collection, with a theme. You'll understand better when I explain below. I do have shots of it, and, I can show you the back, no problem. The problem is with the front, the side that faces up. It has a German marking on it, that dates to the 3rd Reich. I showed this plate to collectors, that specialize in WWII things. Also, I asked around on forums about WWII and things from that time. The little plate is real, and, it comes from a DAF factory, or, Deutsche Arbeitsfront. The DAF had an organization, that regulated free time, and leisure. This organization was the KdF, or Kraft Durch Freude. This plate has the KdF logo on it. Info about KdF Kraft Durch Freude - Strength Through Joy. November 1933, Robert Ley (info Robert Ley) made public, that KdF was founded, and what the intention was. So, the plate could be made as early as end 1933, but I'm thinking, it was made before early WWII, so before, say, 1940, or 1941, when metals got scarce and were used for warfare more and more. Luxury items were made less and less by 1941. But all of this, is just a possible theory. But, you understand, before I post shots, Id like to have permission. For instance, in Germany, swastikas are forbidden. Also, people can be offended by the markings, and, of course, with very good reason!!! So, I want to prevent this. Again, I can of course show the little maker's mark at the back. Thank you, in advance, bye! IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 06-26-2012 03:17 PM
Basically as long things discussed are done politely, factually and without business or promotion it should not be a problem. In the New Members' Forums we will let you know what, if anything, is not abiding with the Guidelines. If necessary you/us can make the minor adjustments so things do conform with the Guidelines. The Silver Salon Forums are hosted in the USA where free speech is respected. The SSF will want to see discussions relating to our shared silver interests/passions. IP: Logged |
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Piratess Posts: 16 |
posted 06-29-2012 01:55 PM
quote:
Thank you. O K, 2 days gone, no big objections, so, I'll post some shots, thank you. I shall use this topic? I can move it if you think its best .. I like to make pictures of things, and try to put them in a sort of natural environment, so you see a book by Robert Ley (sorry can't give more info, links gonna get me kicked out) and a magazine (sorry again, no link to more info!!!) by KdF from the 1930s. Here you see the little plate;
Two German tableware and silverware makers used keys, there are probably more but, I don't know where\how to look for any more info. Köberlin used keys, but, not 1 key but 2 keys. There's only just 1 key on the plate. Koch & Bergfeld used 1 key, but only from 1942 and later. And this plate probably is a bit older, as I said above. If anybody wants more info, on KdF, or the book, or the magazine, just ask Thank you so much in advance, IP: Logged |
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silberpunze Posts: 101 |
posted 07-01-2012 09:01 AM
Hallo Karin, if you have some old silver from germany (before 1888) I can help You with hallmarks and makersmarks. But I have no informations about manufacturer marks after 1888. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 07-01-2012 10:32 AM
Hello Karin-Renate. I can tell you that it is either silverplate or a non=silver alloy like alpaca, and not solid silver. I do not know the maker's mark but it is not Koch & Bergfel. Their single key mark is very different from this one. It is likely that the maker of this has the initials BE. The B might stand for Brüder which means brothers and the E standing for the family name, but of course it could be something else. There were many makers of this kind of metalware in the 1930s and 1940s and there are few records. Most of them are unknown today. The design is that of the Deutsche Arbeitsfront (DAF) or in English, German Labor Front. IP: Logged |
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Piratess Posts: 16 |
posted 07-03-2012 06:57 PM
quote: Hi Silberpunze, thanks!! I don't know if I have anything that old, or from Germany even, I hope you can help with to determine that. Thanks for the offer IP: Logged |
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Piratess Posts: 16 |
posted 07-03-2012 06:58 PM
quote: Kimo, hi!! I figured as much, about the silver. It should be in another part of the forum then? Does not-silver color this way after time? Its a bit tricky to clean or polish it, maybe? Its not DAF actualy, its KdF, but I told a bit about it above. KdF has a link to DAF tho, and it has the DAF logo in it, but its not the same. I surely will start looking for German companies with a family name that starts with E. Records are very very few, yes, unfortunately :/ Thanks again!! IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 07-04-2012 10:58 AM
Thanks for the clarification about the KdF and its relationship to the DAF. Is the difference between their logos the rays coming out from the DAF cog wheel? It is hard to tell from just a photo on the internet, but it seems like it could be two metals the logo applied on top of the dish. This was not uncommon in this time period. Normally on silverplate there is an indication of the amount of silver used in the plating but I do not see any markings that would indicate this which is why I suggested it could be something entirely not silver. Usually such markings would be in the form of a number between 30 and 90 typically. That number indicates the number of grams of silver that was used to plate 24 forks and spoons, or the equivalent for other things. It is only a rough number though and even if it were accurate when the objects were first made, wear and polishing over the years will have reduced the amount of silver by now. Or it could be silverplated without a marking. IP: Logged |
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Piratess Posts: 16 |
posted 07-11-2012 04:00 PM
quote: Yes, the difference is the sunbeam-thing (or Sonnenrad in German) around the DAF logo. KdF was an organization that arranged cheap or free holidays for workers, and also to arrange subsidized sporting and leisure facilities, but of course everything was built around a clever propaganda machine. Membership to DAF voluntary, in theory, but any worker would have a hard time to find work in commerce or industry of there was no membership to DAF. Also in theory, KdF membership was voluntary, and DAF members had to register for KdF separately. Of course it was very unaccepted and frowned upon to not join the KdF if you were a DAF member, so almost all DAF members were also member of KdF. To be a member of either organization cost money. Wiki tells that in 1934, DAF membership earned the National Socialist party about 300,000,000 Reichsmark. So, between the lines, it was a sly way, to make workers pay to get themselves indoctrinated, and make them all comply with NSDAP thoughts and visions. Thanks for the info on the metals of the little dish!!! I guess this plate is something not made of silver. I'm sorry I put it up in the wrong section then The spoon, is made of 2 parts; the shovel part and the handle part. Both are marked, but, I haven't really dug into that, yet. What would be the best place to start? Front, you can really see how blackened it is; Back of the shovel part; Front of the handle; Back, with the clear "JB" marking; The black will come off, but, how do I clean the fine details? And what is that yellowish stuff on the spoon part? Is that made by what it was used for? And, can I clean that out? So far, I have no idea how old the spoon is, or, where it comes from. Well, I hope you like it, the snapshots are made with a phone, but, it works OK I think. Bye, IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 07-11-2012 09:13 PM
The "yellowish stuff" looks like the remnants of a gold wash - be careful not to rub it all off. Some people like to leave some tarnish around the raised features or in the engraving as accents. If you want to remove it all, use a non-abrasive or only mildly abrasive cleaner like "Wright's silver cream" or "Wright's silver polish " and use a cloth or a moistened sponge like the one that comes with it. The sponge will get it all, but the cloth will clean only the high points. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 07-11-2012).] IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 07-11-2012 11:56 PM
It is hard to say for sure, but from the photo I think that someone has taken the handle from one object and a spoon end from a different object and pushed them together to make this up. It does not look to me as if this was made this way. The reason I say this is not only the very different markings on each part, but also the fact that they handle does not fit the spoon where they are joined together - the spoon end is much to large for the handle and it does not fit smoothly. Also they are very different styles. My guess is someone took two broken objects and created this one to sell it. The markings on the spoon end are saying that it was made by some company with the initials M. and S.S. and that it is silver plated which is the A1 marking. The handle might be sterling silver but I can not clearly see the markings there. Could you please provide a close up photo of the markings where the lion figure is and also tell us what the markings are in front of the lion and after the lion? This might be an English sterling hallmark. IP: Logged |
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Piratess Posts: 16 |
posted 07-12-2012 04:43 PM
quote:
Thanks for the polishing tips!!! I didn't clean it too hard, and the little patina in the edges of the raised decorations, is nice, like you say. In the store they told me I should use a fluid to dip it in, that will clean everything right off. Sounded a tad aggressive to me tho, I like old looks on old things. Ill just stick to the simple polish stuff I know, I wont mention the name, I don't know if I'm allowed to. I used an old t-shirt, so I only got the high points, like you said. Some "after" shots below.
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dragonflywink Posts: 993 |
posted 07-12-2012 07:34 PM
Hard to read the British hallmarks on your jam/preserve spoon handle (Queen's pattern variation?) - appears to be Sheffield, and can't quite make out the date letter, but looks like the late 19th-early 20th century Gothic style letter cycle; maker might be John Biggin, noted as a handle and ferrule manufacturer, registered 1902 at Sheffield. Don't know the manufacturer of the spoon end, and it might be a marriage, but not uncommon for a silver maker to use plated or steel parts from an outside source. To my eye, doesn't really look much different from a good number of similar pieces I've seen, with the form and decoration typical of the period; the hollow handles are often filled with a pitch-like substance that can soften with heat, or deteriorate, so it's not unusual to see the inserted part separate from the handle, sometimes much more so than on your piece. The final mark on the bowl, in the shield, is 'EPNS' for Electro-Plated Nickel Silver - so if the spoon part is a bit off-color (yellowish), as you surmised, the plating may have worn down, exposing the nickel silver base. ~Cheryl [This message has been edited by dragonflywink (edited 07-12-2012).] IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 07-13-2012 05:32 PM
Since you are new to all of this, I wanted to explain Cheryl's term 'nickel silver'. This is one of a number of terms invented to help with marketing non-silver or silver plated non-silver. Just a few of the many creative terms for this metal alloy are Nickel Silver, German Silver, Alpaca, etc. All are used by various manufacturers to describe a metal alloy that is mostly copper with some nickel and zinc mixed in to make a silver colored metal. There is no actual silver in it, unless it has been plated with silver which is what your spoon end originally had. Also her reference to the construction of the handle means that it is not solid silver. It is a thin sheet of solid sterling silver (92.5 percent silver plus 7.5 percent other metals) that has been formed into the shape of the handle and then it was filled with melted tar to make it feel solid and so a knife blade or such could be made of steel and affixed by reheating the tar in the handle and while it is still hot and soft, the end of the knife blade could be pushed into it. When cooled the tar would hold the knife blade in place. This was both an inexpensive method of making flatware since little silver was needed, and it allowed a steel knife blade to be mated with a sterling handle since sterling silver makes a terrible knife blade as it is too soft and won't hold an edge like steel does. [This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 07-13-2012).] IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 07-17-2012 05:36 PM
Hello to you, Good to start with your hobby (early aged), so you can learn a lot of silver etc. One tip from this side is to go to Delft at Saturday, in summer they always organize a big market, with a lot of silver/plated. In Gouda at Wednesday(not so big market)but also nice to visit. Perhaps you already knew that but we (family) are going sometimes at Saturday to one of these places. It's great fun in Delft. Success with your hobby and of course study. All the best we are living in the area of Rotterdam to and it's nice to read a dutch reaction. IP: Logged |
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Piratess Posts: 16 |
posted 07-18-2012 04:21 AM
quote:
Thanks so much for the info .. I don't know the pattern, its nice but I never looked at what pattern is what, but, the goth feel I like
quote: Wow Kimo, that is much info!!! I know a little about nickel silver, but the chemical\technical details of it don't stay in my head very well :/ Anyway, yes, alloys got popular during WWII, especially in Germany, when metals got expensive and used for war. Tin was used a lot in alloys, and, that often causes corrosion if the mixture is not pure. The more un-pure an alloy is, the harder corrosion strikes. You see this happen in pins and sometimes medals of that time. Plating on alloys, often also flake off because of this. Anyway, I copied\pasted your info for my notes
quote: Hi Silverhunter Thanks!! I don't know Delft, but I know Schoonhoven, my uncle took me to the Silver Museum there, its very nice, and interesting. The market in Rotterdam sometimes has nice silver things but the prices are high. I'm not buying myself, I only look into the things left from my parents and great parents before. Most of it is gone, everything had to be sold, but there are some things left. You'll see Ill post photos of the little marks soon!!! Bye, IP: Logged |
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Piratess Posts: 16 |
posted 07-19-2012 02:36 PM
Hello, Here are the shots I promised!! I made it so, that you can see a much larger photo, for if you want to see it more close even. O K, so on one side, we see a little lion in the middle, with a crown on the left, and a little letter "h" on the right. The h is a bit worn, and I actually never saw that is was an h, until the photos This shot shows a bit better the letter h, because of the light; Then, the other side, we see up front the capital letters "JB"; And to the left, the little lion again, and that little letter h; The marks on the spoon-side are also worn at the outer marks; The outer right mark, seems to be actually 4 marks? Thank you, IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 07-19-2012 04:39 PM
The crown is the town mark for Sheffield, the lion passant is the mark for sterling and the h is the date mark for 1900-01. As suggested by Cheryl, JB is most likely John Biggin. It is interesting that this piece appears to have been produced before he registered his mark. I do not know the maker of the silver plated end. The A1 does stand for the highest quality silver plate. I suppose this could be called a marriage between two broken belongings. I have always enjoyed seeing these treasures as they show the creative and imaginative approaches that our ancestors used to create useful processions. Enjoy your interesting find. IP: Logged |
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Piratess Posts: 16 |
posted 07-30-2012 04:05 PM
quote: Thanks Ahwt!!! John Biggin is somebody I have to find more about. I found other similar marks (Silver Makers' Marks - Sheffield Assay Office (J))here. They say there also, that someone has a knife handle by him. So this could be the maker. But the letters that are shown stand in little ovals, not like this one. That could explain by that this handle was made before he registered his mark. Another British site called Sheffield History, has some more info. Some relatives try to complete the family history there. What you say about "A1" is also interesting .. I looked it up, and quality is from A1, to just 1, or of A1 to A and further to B, C, D and so on. The latter seems rated more detailed. A1 and 1 is only 2 ratings. Are these two scales used worldwide? Well, I wanted to show you something else. I like it much, like the married-to-the-handle spoon. So, I took out the polish and things, and tried to figure out where he marks are at. Turned out, there aren't any! It's a little silver wallet, very pretty, very old. And if you grab it, your fingers smell like silver, very much! Here you see it; A nice little thing, a bit tired, and worn, even damaged, and the little leather interior is missing (or crumbled to dust by now maybe). But still, no marks. Not even one. And then I figured, the silver didn't get black! And I started to think, it's not silver. And I was right. Then with a magnifying glass, I noticed a word, on the side, very very tiny. "Alp..." something I could read. And I started to feel a hunch coming on. The macro lens on a proper cam made it clear; It says "Alpacca". Or Neusilber\nickel silver, not real silver, but a mix-metal, that looks like silver, and is used to put silver plating on! The word Alpacca on its own was sometimes used by Berndorf Metalware (Austria) in early periods, but what I see online does never like this mark. It could also be used by Württembergische Metallwarenfabrik (Germany), but I reckon this is only guessing? There are no company or silver marks anywhere, so it probably is not silver. Maybe nice to show still, because, well, a bit related. But the silver smell of it, is that normal for Neusilber? That's just nickel, tin and copper together, right? Anyway, I hope you like it. I didn't polish or clean it, yet. I have another little wallet, with the leather interior still in, I'll show it later. Thanks, and bye, IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 07-31-2012 12:42 AM
quote: No, it is just one mark. The mark has 4 letters, EP above ES. It stands for electroplated nickel silver which is a fancy name for silver plating over base metal.
quote: Other than when manufacturers specify a numeric amount of silver such as 30 or 90 or 120 or such which means the approximate number of grams of silver they used to plate the equivalent of 24 spoons, there are no standards for what manufacturers can use to indicate the quality of silver plating. It is mostly just advertising hype and different manufacturers use different kinds of markings, though some use the same kinds of markings but they are completely unrelated to the amount another maker might be using. Even the same manufacturer may use a series of markings that can mean different things over time.
quote: Possibly leather, but more likely silk or satin or such.
quote: You are correct, the term Alpacca is just one of a dozen or two fancy sounding terms that manufacturers have used and continue to use to get you to buy their non-silver products. In some ways it is a bit less dishonest than when they use terms that include the word 'silver'. When you see these terms, you will have something that is a silver colored alloy without a speck of silver in it. And unless there is an additional marking about plating, these normally are not silver plated.
quote:No. Silver does not have a smell. Grab a handful of quarters and dimes dated 1964 and earlier and smell them. They do not have an odor. What you are smelling is likely some old polish or something else. And besides, your purse has no silver in it.
quote: The term Alpacca is widely used by many companies and it is not very helpful in determining which company made something. [This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 07-31-2012).] IP: Logged |
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Piratess Posts: 16 |
posted 07-31-2012 02:43 AM
Thanks so much Kimo for all the info!!! There's so much to learn about and keep in mind. That alpacca-stamp, I was reading some discussions about that on the internet, thanks for clearing that up  IP: Logged |
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I'll make it up, I'm cleaning an old very pretty spoon, I think for sugar. I made some before snaps .. The after snaps I'll put here when it is polished .JPG)
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But, see the bad fit of the handle, there even is a whole space between the handle and the shovel-part!!! And after cleaning, I even see a difference in the color of the 2 parts. It cleaned up nice tho, I still like it, but, its not an original, surely .JPG)
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