posted 04-22-2015 06:58 PM            

My name is David and I'm a small-time collector of a variety of types of collectibles, including silver. There is no specific rhyme or reason to what I collect except that every one of the pieces in my collections caught my eye or my fancy in one way or another.

I recently came across an interesting antique silver dish that I'm having trouble identifying, in regards to both when and where it was made. Any assistance I can get from forum members would be appreciated.

The dish is decorated by hand with a variety of figures and images in repoussé. The style of the decorations could be described as being pretty crude -- which leads me to believe that the dish may be quite old, possibly 17th or 18th century.

The diameter of the plate is 385mm (about 15.25") and its height is 40mm (about 1.55"), including the height of the four feet, which is 13mm (0.5"). It weighs 1,242 grams (about 40oz).

I could locate no hallmarks, however the dish has been acid tested and the results indicate that it is a medium-grade silver.

I have tried to identify the geographic source of the plate based on the style of the decorations and the look and dress of the figures seen, but without success. My guess is that it could be from East Europe, Central Asia or possibly early West or North Europe.

A detailed description of the decorations -- and a number of images -- appear at the bottom of this post, below.

Again, any assistance would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

David
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The decorations on the plate consists of the following three sections, from the outside in:
1. An external elevated rim consisting of five sections:
a. A thin bezel strip decorated with ribbed diagonal lines (width 6mm)
b. A strip decorated in repoussé with different types of flowers and leaves, encircled with vines (15mm)
c. A thin strip decorated with ribbed diagonal lines (2mm)
d. A strip decorated with repoussé medallions of flowers and a woman's profile, mostly alternating three of the former and then one of the latter (24mm)
e. A thin strip decorated with ribbed diagonal lines (6mm)
2. A sloping section decorated in repoussé with feather (or upside-down arch) shaped decorations (width 29mm)
3. A central bowl consisting of four sections:
a. A thin strip decorated with ribbed straight lines (width 7mm)
b. A wide section decorated in repoussé with two scenes, the first showing two scenes of soldiers and citizens paying homage to a king holding a scepter behind whom stand armed guards, and the second showing a scene of a celebration of sorts, with people dancing, playing a game with balls, riding an ox and also two centaurs, one (winged) playing a flute and the other playing a panpipe (55mm)
c. A strip decorated in repoussé with different types of flowers and leaves, and animals and birds (including a dove, boar, goat, owl, deer and more), the flora and fauna alternating, encircled with vines, framed above and beneath with a row of beads (15mm)
d. A central medallion decorated in repoussé with two armed warriors on horseback facing each other (76mm)

The verso has four attached square legs and a hanger (these likely were attached at a later date)
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posted 04-23-2015 07:55 AM            

David

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posted 04-23-2015 02:09 PM            

Thanks for the feedback.

The oval-shaped white thingie you noticed (see close-up image below)is in fact an Israeli luxury tax label from the 1950s. This shows that the object was brought into Israel in the 1950s and was taxed upon import.

Unfortunately it does not shed any light on the when and where the object was originally made, so these questions remain open...

Any further insights and ideas are welcome!

Cheers,

David

posted 04-25-2015 05:53 PM            

As you may have deduced, I'm located in Israel. I've shown the piece to a number of local experts, including collectors, dealers and auction houses. Between them I would estimate they have examined many tens of thousands of silver items in a professional capacity.

Not one of these experts could say with a reasonable degree of certainty where this piece is from. They voiced suggestions ranging from Burma and India in the east to Saxon Germany in the west, but these were all along the lines of "Perhaps it is from...". Nobody could tell for sure.

In addition, none suggested that the piece comes from the Middle East. As you would expect, Middle Eastern silver -- ranging in source from everywhere between North Africa to Persia -- is quite common here. None of the opinions I got placed the item from any location in the region.

Therefore my opinion is that the piece is from somewhere east of Persia or west (or north-west) of Turkey.

As for the wall hanger and the four feet on the back, the consensus is that these are later to the piece. I am not sure therefore that they can be used to date it.

Re the acid testing, the metal was gouged carefully in a couple of spots. The piece is definitely solid silver.

Thanks again for your input, and any other ideas you -- or anyone else reading this thread -- may have, would be welcomed.

posted 05-13-2015 03:04 AM            

I received feedback from a couple of UK-based auction houses to whom I sent similar questions to the ones I posted here.

The consensus is that the item is 19th century, probably produced somewhere in the Balkans during the period of the Greater Ottoman Empire.

FYI...

Cheers,

posted 06-26-2015 06:43 PM            

Could it be knights of sct John facing the muslims?

Made around 100 years ago.

posted 06-28-2015 06:49 AM            

Since first posting my question to this thread and exchanging a few viewpoints with other members of the forum, I have heard back from more auction houses and experts in the UK to whom I sent questions about the plate.

The general consensus is that this is a 19th-century piece of what is known as pseudo-antiquity. It was probably produced somewhere in the greater Ottoman empire, most likely in the Balkans. The piece is not an original design, but whoever created it based its design on original 12th or 13th century Byzantine objects.

Thanks again for your input and IMHO, I have gotten as far as one can get with the research of this piece. Now's the time to sit back and enjoy it...

Cheers,

posted 06-28-2015 01:09 PM            

However look at the two horse mmen - one is European the other muslim.