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 another maker ID sought
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| Author | Topic: another maker ID sought |
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cbc58 Posts: 333 |
posted 12-20-2016 04:21 PM
  
I have looked all over for this spoon maker and can't find them. Anyone have a guess as to whom it might be? Could this be early 18th century? Also I have noticed that this spoon has a smooth attachment from the handle to the bowl. thank you in advance. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 12-20-2016 05:22 PM
What reference books have you scrutinized? IP: Logged |
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PhilO Posts: 166 |
posted 12-20-2016 05:26 PM
This is the mark of George Smith, called George Smith I to distinguish him from several other George Smiths. He registered this mark in 1739. Your spoon bears the hallmark for London 1774. Phil -- correction added 21 Dec 2016 -- I was just updating my database and realised that this is actually George Smith III whose mark was first registered in 1774. This fits much better with the date of the spoon. [This message has been edited by PhilO (edited 12-21-2016).] IP: Logged |
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cbc58 Posts: 333 |
posted 12-20-2016 05:58 PM
Thank you. I never would have guessed the last letter was an S and was looking under GL and GT. Also had spent time in the E section of the two online websites that have marks. I picked up a book called the Book of Old Silver by Wyler and had also skimmed that. IP: Logged |
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cbc58 Posts: 333 |
posted 12-20-2016 06:31 PM
I have dated this spoon to 1802, but am not sure of the makers mark. After learning from the previous identification to literally think outside the box, could this be an MS ? Is so, based on the shape of the S it looks like it might be Mary Sumner, but according to the marks website, she didn't register her mark until 1807. Is it common to find this sort of thing - a piece with someones mark that is dated before known registration? That would be if this is indeed her. Which I had a infrared microscope at my house... or maybe I'm looking at this upside down and it's an SH - there was a Solomon Hougham working at that time and his mark has a cut corner.. [This message has been edited by cbc58 (edited 12-20-2016).] IP: Logged |
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PhilO Posts: 166 |
posted 12-21-2016 02:16 AM
It's very likely to be Solomon Hougham as makers' marks were more often than not inverted in relation to the hallmark at this period. It's not possible to be completely sure of course because of the wear to the mark. Phil IP: Logged |
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asheland Posts: 935 |
posted 12-21-2016 10:57 AM
The other members beat me to it.  You have some nice Georgian silver there! IP: Logged |
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cbc58 Posts: 333 |
posted 12-26-2016 06:37 PM
I looked up the initials on this is various countries (online hallmarks) but can't find a corresponding mark. where would this spoon be from ? IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 12-26-2016 09:28 PM
The eagle/BS/arm and hammer mark is attributed to Bunnell and Schreuder working in Syracuse NY 1853-57. This attribution was originally published in the J/F 1990 issue of Silver Magazine. The information is included in the book Manufacturers' Marks off American Coin Silver by John Mcgrew. This company was acquired by Hotchkiss and Schreuder. Another thread (andrew schreuder pattern?) on the forum also discusses this company. IP: Logged |
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cbc58 Posts: 333 |
posted 12-27-2016 07:32 AM
thank you very much for the I.D. I have a book titled "Marks of American Silversmiths" and they are not listed in it. Is there one book that silver collectors consider "the best and most comprehensive resource" for American marks? I was researching another spoon and found another maker also not listed in that book. IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 12-27-2016 10:30 AM
If you search in the "Silver Ephemera & Documentation" section of this forum for books you will find quite a few discussions on reference books. Somewhere in that section the forum did come a list of books for beginners with a short critique of each book. This is a good time for anyone just starting to buy books as the price of good reference books has really dropped. One of the books that I started with was Rainwater and Redfield's book "Encyclopedia of American Silver Manufacturers". The one to buy is the Fourth edition as the fifth edition left out a lot of things. Another book that I really like is Silver in America by Charles Venable. The most recent reference books on American silver have been by Catherine B. Hollan. All of her books are great and will add to your knowledge. The first book of hers that I would buy is her book on Philadelphia Silversmiths. That is simply because silver from Philadelphia is a favorite of mine. IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 12-27-2016 10:41 AM
Another thought for books is to check first at your local library or art museum or if you live close to a big city go there and look. The more books you look at the better you can decide what to buy. Buying books can be addictive and there are a lot of good ones out there. [This message has been edited by ahwt (edited 12-27-2016).] IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 12-27-2016 04:40 PM
At the risk of immodesty, I would recommend a look at my little project. It currently includes more than 8,000 workers and more than 5,000 marks. While it is not as easy to use as a straightforward city, state, or institution reference book and does not include, perforce, some very fine and well-known makers, it may still reward patient use. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 12-27-2016 05:30 PM
I second WEV's post! Even so, there is nothing better than a shelf of references. As you target a specialty having a complimentary and diverse set of references will help you to understand new and contradictory info. WEV's site is the best about what is truly known without the hyperbole often seen elsewhere. IP: Logged |
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cbc58 Posts: 333 |
posted 12-27-2016 06:03 PM
I had already found WEV's site and bookmarked it... actually found it this morning. When I am trying to find a maker and it's not in the major sites or the books I have, I then try and google it and that is how I have come across numerous online hallmark references including WEV's. Of course it helps to know what the hallmark pics are - I never would have guessed an "arm and hammer" in the last pic. Next time I'll know. [This message has been edited by cbc58 (edited 12-27-2016).] [This message has been edited by cbc58 (edited 12-28-2016).] IP: Logged |
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cbc58 Posts: 333 |
posted 12-31-2016 12:20 PM
I have another question on American coin silver spoons. I know that some mfgs. would put British-like stamps on their spoons as a sales tool. My question is: would those stamps be totally random, or would they actually use the corresponding date letter to identify the year of mfg? Just wondering because it would be nice to be able to accurately date an American spoon. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 12-31-2016 01:28 PM
Only a very small handful of American makers used any sort of dating and, aside from Baltimore, coding was not used -- few people would know what it meant or much care. Short of some sort of accurate documentation, dating is generally a best guess. IP: Logged |
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cbc58 Posts: 333 |
posted 12-31-2016 01:47 PM
so coin silver mfgs would put anything that looked good on their spoons and it really had no meaning in terms of dating. simply a sales tool. would that be a correct statement?
IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 12-31-2016 02:06 PM
The marks could certainly have some symbolic meaning (D for dollar, a buffalo for goods made in Buffalo, etc) or indicate a wholesale manufacturer. Occasionally they were more concrete in meaning ala Bailey's marks for sterling vs coin goods, but in all cases they were the maker's caprice. IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 12-31-2016 03:04 PM
When Coin Evolved to Sterling is a good thread for reading on a holiday weekend. Also "COIN" punch mark on American Silver is interesting. IP: Logged |
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cbc58 Posts: 333 |
posted 01-01-2017 10:01 AM
Thank you for the information and links. Happy New Year. IP: Logged |
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