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 Hallo all - Unidentified Hallmarks
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| Author | Topic: Hallo all - Unidentified Hallmarks |
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Beege Posts: 21 |
posted 06-12-2018 02:40 PM
  
I'm new to this forum. Despite my Username I'm called Jack. I'm relatively ancient and have long had a love of art, whether paintings, books, ceramics, etc. I am new to silver and have 'picked up' a modicum of knowledge to be able to identify some UK silver...I still have much to learn. The unexpected therapeutic benefits of cleaning silver has been a revelation to me! I have a delightful, creamer/jug which looks and feels old. It has three marks on the base which have thwarted my attempts to identify...the closest I have identified one of the marks (via silver collection.it) is possibly an unidentified silversmith (IK) from the late 1600s! I am currently assuming this is silver as there are none of the obvious hallmarks to confirm. I wonder whether any of you kind folks recognise these marks, or may be able to direct me to further information. Many thanks. [This message has been edited by Beege (edited 06-12-2018).] [This message has been edited by Beege (edited 06-12-2018).] IP: Logged |
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asheland Posts: 935 |
posted 06-13-2018 10:39 AM
Welcome to the forums! I can't help with those marks, but it looks c.1740 and most certainly is solid silver. I have a spoon from this same period that also remains a mystery so I feel your pain. IP: Logged |
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Beege Posts: 21 |
posted 06-13-2018 11:41 AM
Thank you for the welcome Asheland, appreciated. 'Pain' is an appropriate word! Whilst I agree, why are you so confident the item is solid silver? Is it simply the 'look'? Regards [This message has been edited by Beege (edited 06-13-2018).] IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 06-13-2018 05:50 PM
I do not know whose marks are on your milk pot or even what country it came from. It does look solid silver to me. I think this style was popular until 1770 in the US, but may have gone out of style earlier in England or other European countries. Silver milk jugs were recorded in the London assay office as early as 1702. IP: Logged |
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Beege Posts: 21 |
posted 06-14-2018 06:31 AM
Thank you ahwt - it will go well with my cup of tea...once I've cleaned the inside. I will look further into the US suggestion. The handle of this small jug (approx 5' tall) appears to be wood, though I am unsure of which type. Sadly it has been snapped but remains in place owing to the fixtures at each end. I've added some more pictures to provide the overall effect. [This message has been edited by Beege (edited 06-14-2018).] IP: Logged |
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cbc58 Posts: 333 |
posted 06-14-2018 09:14 AM
nice jug. notice that there are pads under the base of the legs. would that have been something they would have done in the mid 1700's? IP: Logged |
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Beege Posts: 21 |
posted 06-14-2018 10:35 AM
Hi CBC58. Assuming I've understood (always questionable), there are no 'pads' as such: each foot is a single silver piece shaped to have a flat base. IP: Logged |
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Beege Posts: 21 |
posted 06-14-2018 10:58 AM
Just a little more info: The first image below is one of the three which make up the hallmarks on the jug - I've assumed I have this the right way up. The second image is from silvercollection.it which is the nearest I can get to a match...so far. The description for the second image is "IK over a rose between two pellets, not identified, London 2nd half 17th century hallmark". IP: Logged |
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asheland Posts: 935 |
posted 06-14-2018 12:56 PM
Indeed the look, style, monogram, etc. I feel very firm it is solid silver, everything looks right. It's just a matter of where it's from. Indeed, it's possibly colonial American, but other possibilities are out there. Nice piece! IP: Logged |
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cbc58 Posts: 333 |
posted 06-14-2018 05:44 PM
Hi - I was asking about the pads on the bottom of the base of the feet. I think the legs are cast and was just wondering if they put pads on the bottom of the feet back in the mid 1700's. I've seen a few jugs without pads. Hope someone can help you identify your jug. It's a mystery. If you think the IK is the makers mark, wonder what the other mark with the letters stand for. Or maybe they might be the makers mark... I'm guessing the wood handle is certainly a clue to origin/maker since most don't have them. IP: Logged |
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Beege Posts: 21 |
posted 06-14-2018 06:41 PM
Hi cbc58. Your right of course, I'm guessing that the IK may be the makers mark. To be honest the other letters look more encouraging, though not totally visible. The P over the D is very clear, but there seems to be a letter before the P which just isn't visible! Frustrating! IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 06-14-2018 08:59 PM
Would the wooden handle mean the jug was used for hot milk? No need for a wooden handle if the contents aren't hot. IP: Logged |
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Beege Posts: 21 |
posted 06-15-2018 03:37 AM
Good point Polly...makes sense. I'm quite curious about what this wood is (assuming it is wood): very smooth and hard yet beautifully curved. Such work must have taken a lot of time by presumably softening it with steam and bending. IP: Logged |
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Beege Posts: 21 |
posted 06-23-2018 02:32 AM
Well, I've looked 'high and low' on the internet to find examples of this lovely little jug and its obscure hallmarks. Whilst I have come close in terms of shape, overall my quest has been to no avail. Can somebody perhaps advise me on how one takes this forward? Is it simply a matter of taking the jug to a respectable jeweller and seeking advice, or is there a definitive tome awaiting my purchase? Many thanks. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 06-23-2018 10:15 AM
Patience. And then more patience. Sometimes it can take a while for the right member to check in, read all the posts they missed while they were away and then to have the time to comb thru their references. For example, I been away for a few weeks and can't seem to catch up and do everything that needs to be done.... IP: Logged |
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cbc58 Posts: 333 |
posted 06-23-2018 10:17 AM
Beege - I have looked high and low also trying to figure out who the maker is but to no avail. I looked for wood handled jugs with a similar shape and construction and the closest that I found were some pieces made in Germany. Searched old auction records also. Hopefully someone will uncover this mystery for you.
IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 06-23-2018 10:23 AM
One more thing... If you do take it to "a respectable jeweler" they might want do an "acid test". Then they are the wrong person. DO NOT LET THEM FILE OR PUT ACID ANYWHERE ON YOUR JUG because this is damage and will ruin the value. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 06-23-2018 10:35 AM
I don't have the time right now.... A quick look at one of my references indicates Finland sometimes used an "I K" mark. IK = Ikaakinen IP: Logged |
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Beege Posts: 21 |
posted 06-23-2018 01:45 PM
Thank you for two excellent pieces of information Scott. I shall have a look at the Finland possibilities. Regards Jack IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 06-23-2018 02:58 PM
You might see if anyone at this address speaks English and might help you. If they do, please share with us. Email: info@leimat.fi IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 06-23-2018 05:49 PM
My reach out got a response.  quote: IP: Logged |
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Beege Posts: 21 |
posted 06-24-2018 02:19 AM
Yes, I got exactly the same response from Christian. It will be interesting if he comes up with any other suggestions. Thanks for the idea Scott. IP: Logged |
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Beege Posts: 21 |
posted 06-24-2018 02:24 AM
Hi cbc58. Strangely I also began to 'hedge' towards the German idea as I trawled through the internet, but like you, I just couldn't get the shape and handle to 'fit'. Definitely no examples of the hallmarks...so far. Thank you for looking. Jack. IP: Logged |
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Leimatfi Posts: 1 |
posted 06-24-2018 04:49 AM
I thought it may be simpler to post a reply here for everyone to read. Unfortunately, we have been unable to shed more light on these marks than has already been suggested by others. We have to agree about the strong resemblance of the IK mark to the unidentified London mark. The 'PD' almost certainly is missing a first letter, either worn down or—more likely—badly punched. We were a little concerned that the missing letter may be an 'E', making 'EP/D'. However, if the piece is indeed 18th Century, it is far too early for electroplating. The third mark looks very much closer to a harp than a letter. There are various harp marks relating to the Irish assay office. That does put it in conflict with the 'London' IK mark though. We are not experts in hallmarking outside of Finland, but we do have a lot of experience in the precious metal industry, with several in our team being master goldsmiths. To us the jug and marks have the look of a British piece. Certainly, we have encountered numerous instances of haphazard pre-20th Century British hallmarking before. Unclear punching and required marks completely missing are common. As I mentioned, this instinct may be wrong. I am sorry we couldn't have more helpful information. Good luck with your search! Christian Jull, IP: Logged |
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Beege Posts: 21 |
posted 06-24-2018 09:18 AM
Christian, Thank you so much for all your efforts. You raise some interesting points and as a newcomer to the world of gold/silver your comments help me personally to begin to grasp the nuances and variations in hallmarks. I appreciate your help very much...and will continue my 'quest' to identify this rather nice silver jug. Jack IP: Logged |
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dragonflywink Posts: 993 |
posted 06-24-2018 11:55 AM
I'd also guess 18th century, from Germany or thereabouts - unfortunately, Theo's excellent silberpunze site is not functional at the moment, but perhaps he'll pop in here at some point... ~Cheryl IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 06-24-2018 12:13 PM
Until he shows up again .... silberpunze IP: Logged |
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silberpunze Posts: 101 |
posted 07-02-2018 02:54 PM
it is the swiss town Lausanne like this the XI is the silver alloy (not Lot) but I dont know the maker IP: Logged |
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Beege Posts: 21 |
posted 07-04-2018 10:49 AM
Thank you very much silberpunze, most appreciated. So, what I was reading as IK was upside down and should read XI. Do you know what X! means as a grade of silver alloy? Who, or what, is Blackstone? Regards Jack IP: Logged |
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Beege Posts: 21 |
posted 07-04-2018 11:12 AM
Hi silberpunze. Just had a little more of a look on the internet to see what I can find re Lausanne silver. Please tell me if I'm wrong: Again, my thanks. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 07-04-2018 11:55 AM
Member : Blakstone posts IP: Logged |
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Beege Posts: 21 |
posted 07-04-2018 12:11 PM
Thanks Scott, but I couldn't make that link work. Apologies for my knee-jerk questions above, I'm still learning...and what I have learnt is this... The 'harp-like' mark is indeed the Lasanne Hallmark. The XI mark was done without the O; so .916 seems right The makers mark appears to suggest Papus & Dautun, probably around 1760-1762, though they continued until 1793. I know understand 'blakstone' and have seen previous comments by blakstone which elude to the PD mark referring to Jean-Philippe Delacour (1768-1824). What I do not know is whether this PD mark (which I believe is EP over D) refers to Delacour. Any thoughts gratefully received. Thank you IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 07-04-2018 12:22 PM
It took me a few tries to get the link correct...try again. Also see: Swiss Silver, part 1 IP: Logged |
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silberpunze Posts: 101 |
posted 07-04-2018 04:53 PM
quote: yes but I have no better informations about the maker IP: Logged |
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Beege Posts: 21 |
posted 07-04-2018 10:37 PM
Scott/silberpunze, thank you for your replies. The link to blakstone's discussions on Swiss silver flatware was fascinating: clearly a contributor of great knowledge. Now, if I can just clarify the silversmith... IP: Logged |
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