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 Identify a pattern number on 1925 or later Kentucky Derby Trophy
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| Author | Topic: Identify a pattern number on 1925 or later Kentucky Derby Trophy |
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AurotaTess Posts: 6 |
posted 01-06-2024 09:12 PM
  
A discovery has been made and we don’t know what to make of it. Starting in 1925, all the way to 1974, the pattern number 8674 appears as a stamped number in the base of all Kentucky Derby trophies. What does this number represent? Is it the content of pure gold and the (I.e. 86% gold) and the balance are other alloys???? AND more importantly, WHY is this number missing from the 1st, original trophy, which was given 100 years ago, in 1924???? ------- [This message has been edited by AurotaTess (edited 01-06-2024).] IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1652 |
posted 01-17-2024 10:02 AM
I do not know what the 8674 number means but it sounds like a typical manufacturer's pattern number. It is definitely not a gold purity number. What I do know is that the gold purity used in all of these Kentucky Derby trophies has always been 14K which means 14 parts out of 24 parts is actual gold making it 58.3 percent with the rest being other metals to create a strong alloy. For ordinary yellow gold these other metals are typically copper and silver. An alloy that was 86 percent gold would be much too soft to make a trophy with. Also, these trophies are not solid lumps of gold but rather are hollow inside and created by spinning a sheet of 14K gold on a lathe and using a tool to curve the sheet up in to urn shape in the way a sterling silver water pitcher is made. The metal is 14K throughout, but it is a hollow vessel with some solid 14K decorations welded on. The original maker was the Elgin Company but they were bought out by the S. R. Blackinton Company in 1975 and who now make the trophies under the original design except for a recent change to mount the horseshoe decorations facing up instead of down. [This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 02-21-2024).] IP: Logged |
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AurotaTess Posts: 6 |
posted 02-02-2024 09:01 PM
Hello Kimo, Thank you so much for sharing your thoughtful expertise and it did help. Sorry I wasn’t more timely in my acknowledgment, but I thought I’d probably never hear anything since there are very few posts in recent years. But I would like to pick your brain further. You say the item is hollow. Does this mean that the outside of the trophy and the inside have like a void of air in between the two walls? We would like to have the trophy re-engraved but are being told it is too thin and by engraving again, it risks damaging the artifact. Would you know anything about this? Again, thank you for your help. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2377 |
posted 02-04-2024 10:32 AM
You most likely have seen it but if not, Wikipedia has an informative article on the Kentucky Derby trophies. On the question of removal and reengraving of a historic item of silver, I would say it would be a mistake. I have never seen a monogram removal that was pleasant to look at and to remove what most likely is a long inscription could be a complete disaster. I have seen many presentation cups that have had second engravings placed on them as the cup passed down to future generations in the family. Those engravings, in my opinion, do not detract from the artistic value as they simply show a pleasant passage though family lines. The cup is still a presentation cup and has not lost its history. To remove an inscription on your trophy would cause the trophy to no longer be a Kentucky Derby trophy, but simply a badly damaged trophy. IP: Logged |
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AurotaTess Posts: 6 |
posted 02-04-2024 11:04 AM
Hello, and thank you for weighing in. I will search WIKI but it is usually for general knowledge and still may provide insight. I Do thank you for pointing to that. To give more of the back story…the trophy,14 K gold, was mistakenly re-engraved to the wrong horse-owner. Unfortunately, years before, it was purchased from a pawned transaction, where the original engraving had been buffed out so as to avoid detection. As a follow up, is there any method available to sort of ‘carbon date’ gold? From a previous post response, I do now understand more about the content of gold vs. alloys needed. But wonder if, with changes over time, is there any information that will clearly indicate, its origin? Or is all gold the same no matter when it was made? The trophy I refer to in this conversation, does clearly have all the authentic identifying marks which include the Redlich lion trademark, LOUISVILLE, KY, LEMON AND SON and 14K, all of which are still in tact. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2377 |
posted 02-04-2024 05:14 PM
That is an interesting backstory on your trophy. Wikipedia does have some dates for design changes that may help in finding a production date for the trophy. As far as repairing it I should think you could have any silversmith experienced in repair work do the repair. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11573 |
posted 02-04-2024 05:57 PM
Please know a Jeweler and a Silversmith will usually have a different approach when making a repair. My advice is to find a Silversmith who has experience with hollowware and plating. Analyzing the impurities in the metal with one of the advanced scientific tests might (or might not) reveal more info about the items history. IP: Logged |
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AurotaTess Posts: 6 |
posted 02-05-2024 09:15 AM
Do you know if the advance scientific method you refer to is done with a spectrograph? IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11573 |
posted 02-05-2024 12:17 PM
Spectroscopy is a general term for several spectroscopic techniques that simply chart or a graph the intensity of light being emitted (reflected) over a range of energies. As with most testing and the equipment to conduct the same, it comes down to how refined the equipment is, how well the equipment is fine tuned, what is actually sampled and most important is the skill of the operator and the experience of the person doing the analyst. Most who do Spectroscopy are dealing with surface reflection which is not good enough because it doesn't tell you what is underneath the surface and what are all (& the proportions) of trace elements. Electroplating and polishing changes the surface results and does not tell you much about what is underneath. A experienced technician and analyst will collaborate about where and how many destructive samples to take/use. Although the individual destructive samples in general are very small nonetheless the sampling is destructive which diminishes the items value. As such Spectroscopy testing should be used judicially. The $ cost to get it done right is usually more than most items/owners can tolerate. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1652 |
posted 02-21-2024 09:27 PM
Gold is gold - it is immutable and that is one of the several reasons it has always been valued so highly so there is no carbon-14 type analysis that I am aware of. Trying to polish off any inscription would be a mistake in my personal opinion - as has already been mentioned, it rarely comes out looking very good. The reason is you have to physically grind and polish away enough gold from the area around the engraving to lower the surface level of the metal there to below the depth of the deepest part of the engraving. Removing that much metal often leaves you with a noticeable flat spot, or it could even result in a cut through making a hole in the metal since it is just a thin sheet of metal that has been shaped on a lathe into an urn shape with the seam being soldered together and polished to be invisible to the eye. Depending on the thickness of that sheet of gold used in making the trophy you can easily wear through the metal with your grinder and polisher if you remove enough of it from the outside surface. Or you can thin the metal so much that it would have little resistance to being dented with even fingertip pressure much less re-engraving cutting down into that thinned area of metal. Other than the very few and far between changes in the trophy over the years (such as the horseshoe oriented up or down) I do not think there is a realistic way to date it. One possibility might be to try to determine the exact alloy of gold used over the years but to do that you would need to use an XRF gun and have access to many of the trophies to test each of them to see what alloys were for each year - if there are any differences and I do not know if there would be any. An XRF gun is an "X-Ray Fluorescence" instrument. They are shaped a little bit like a gun only being a bit fatter in all dimensions - like those pricing guns you see some stores use to make and attach those little sticky paper price tags on their merchandise. An XRF gun is completely non-destructive and will tell you a very precise makeup of the exact percentages of each metal in an alloy of a given object. But as I mentioned, I do not know if that will actually work since 14K yellow gold has historically been a relatively set alloy so there may not be much if any difference in the 14K alloy used over time. [This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 02-24-2024).] IP: Logged |
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AurotaTess Posts: 6 |
posted 02-26-2024 03:51 PM
Hello again and your explanation is very helpful. Would this XRF gun be used only by Silversmiths? Or would I seek out other professionals? We do have numerous years available to compare, not in our possession, but at the museums most well known for their Kentucky Derby collections, so this might be possible. The trophies in the same or very close timeframe are 1925 and 1928, and then there are 2-3 in the early and mid and late 1930’s. I’ll keep the group posted if we can get this accomplished and what is learned. Theresa IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1652 |
posted 02-28-2024 01:34 AM
An XRF gun costs in the range of $15,000 to $50,000, depending on the features. Because of this high price the only people who tend to have them are those with businesses who need to analyze unknown alloys on a regular basis such as larger jewelers who buy and sell old jewelry or who want to be sure the metal they are buying from precious metal dealers is what they are paying for, scrap metal dealers, larger pawn shops who buy and sell old jewelry and things represented to be precious metals, and the like. Ask around these types of places in your area and see who may have an XRF gun and if they are willing to test your trophy and any other trophies to which you have access. Most such places might charge you a fee to test your trophy as they need to pay for the cost and upkeep of their XRF gun in which they have invested, though some might do it as a favor. This is the only non-destructive way to determine the exact percentages of each element in your 14K gold - including whether it is actually a full 14K - i.e. at least 58.3333 percent gold, and the exact percentages of each of the other metals in the alloy your trophy is made from. Because it uses x-rays, it gets down into the metal itself instead of just the surface of the metal. If you do an internet search for XRF gun or XRF analyzer you can see what they look like. [This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 03-01-2024).] IP: Logged |
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AurotaTess Posts: 6 |
posted 03-06-2024 10:06 AM
As usual, appreciate the guidance. I’d have no idea how to proceed without the helpful expertise provided in this forum. Thank you to whomever decided to put this up online for those of us who are not in this field may have things explained in layman’s terms! Will send any info we learn so it might benefit future quests. IP: Logged |
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