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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 Continental / International Silver
 French Ladle Mark Question
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| Author | Topic: French Ladle Mark Question |
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nihontochicken Posts: 289 |
posted 07-20-2004 06:40 PM
  
Well, as a follow-up to my last inquiry (German Hallmark Question), I went for the apparently French-made ladle, based on what I could divine from the phuzzy hallmark fotos. Turns out it is French 950 grade silver, but from a later date than I had imagined. The ladle is Hanoverian pattern with an upper mid-ridge, but with no drop. The hallmarks turned out to be the post-1838 Minerva #1 opposite a bignorne stamp (not identified by the seller) of a libellule (dragonfly), plus the maker's stamp. Note these stamps are on the bowl near the rim and stem, not on the stem. The maker's mark is a lozenge containing what appears to be <device> (crown? berries?) over "H <pellet> F <pellet> RES" ("RES" is small and underlined, not sure of "R") over <device> (star? cross?). Can anyone identify the maker and likely period? Maybe I should get a book on continental makers. Any recs? Also, can someone indicate why the bowl was marked instead of the stem? The marks are very small, and would have fit the stem, slender as it is. TIA! [This message has been edited by nihontochicken (edited 07-20-2004).] IP: Logged |
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blakstone Posts: 493 |
posted 07-26-2004 11:13 PM
The mark you describe - M. Fres. with two cherries and a star below - is that of Moricault Frères [Brothers] of Paris (working at 19 rue Sainte Croix de la Bretonnerie; later 111 rue de Turenne), and was in use from 1864 until 1893. As for the placement of the mark, I have conflicting reports. Tardy says, per a catalogue of 1838, that the mark placement on forks and spoons was to be "as the maker prefers" but another source in french (and apprently from the same catalogue) states they were to be marked at "le bas du manche" or "the bottom of the handle." "Bas" can mean low, bottom or even underneath (in the directional sense), but even though my french is hardly fluent, I think that "the underside of the handle" would be stated more accurately as "le dessous du manche." I expect the interpretation of this was equally unclear to the assayers of the time, and that since 1838 the placement of the marks has been determined simply by where they would do the least structural or aesthetic damage (and probably in that order). Barring these obstacles, I think that the matter was probably left up to the caprice of the maker or assayer. IP: Logged |
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nihontochicken Posts: 289 |
posted 07-27-2004 12:41 AM
Thank you, Blakstone, and congrats on your "new" membership! As I indicated before, perhaps I should pop for a book on Continental, or at least French, makers. What would you recommend? I have found a title, "French Master Goldsmiths And Silversmiths From The Seventeenth To The Nineteenth Centuries" by Jean Babalon, sounds good, but I have no idea what's inside the covers. Re this ladle, being a Hanoverian Pattern but with no drop, would this be a replacement piece, or perhaps more likely a remake? In the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, the British seemed to enjoy remaking old styles. Was this also a French pastime? IP: Logged |
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Patrick Vyvyan Posts: 640 |
posted 08-02-2004 10:46 AM
One reason why French flatware was seldom marked on the back of the stem (at least from the mid 19th century) was that the French laid their place settings "up-side-down". Thus the backs of spoons and forks are often more decorated & have the monogram,crest etc. I don't know how far back this practice goes. (p.s. nihontochicken, nothing more as yet on Hilaritas) IP: Logged |
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nihontochicken Posts: 289 |
posted 08-04-2004 11:46 PM
Thanks for your reply and check on Hilaritas, Patrick. Re French ladle marking, note my earlier post to this board (Got Ants!). That fiddle and thread ladle was likely made between 1838 and 1846 per the Minerva and maker's marks. It was stem stamped. This ladle, though an earlier style (Hanoverian), was likely made in 1864 or later (see above), and it is bowl stamped. I wonder if the placement was more due to the whim of the maker/assayer than the dictates of a given time period. IP: Logged |
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labarbedor Posts: 353 |
posted 08-07-2004 01:37 PM
Well I guess I am getting into this thread a bit late, but here goes. French silver was historically marked on the back of the spoon, etc. usually closer to the bowl. The crest, coat-of-arms or monogram was usually put on the back but towards the end. These were the standards from the earliest times. The placement of the marks made sense because marks until the 19th century were mostly quite large and struck quite deeply. This would distort the handle, which would then have to be reformed (this would squeeze the marks and give them an elongated look). This was much the same in Britain. The difference comes with the fact that French would also put the crest on the back of the spoon, which I guess would bother some, having the marks and mono on the same side. In my opinion the French were happy to display the marks, as they showed your silver was of a high standard. It strikes me a bit odd that in the modern American home you have to turn you spoon over (and maybe use a loupe) to see if your host is serving you with sterling. .A problem would only arise if there was decoration in the usual place (a rare occurrence before the 19th century), and then they would either mark the back of the bowl or higher on the handle. As for displaying the silver bowl, etc down, that also seems more esthetically pleasing and even perhaps more sanitary, but then that may be because I am French. In the 19th century marks became much smaller even on large pieces of silver. This probably created some problems finding them. I presume that is what led to the standardization of where a piece would be marked. Even when you know where a piece is supposed to be marked it is sometimes hard to find the marks on a large fancy piece. On a ladle or spoon at the beginning of the 19th century they were placed in the usual place, since the patterns were often the same as those used earlier, and the marks still fairly large. However as time progressed fancy patterns arrived with the use of drop forging. At that time the plain bowl was often the only available spot to mark spoons, which presented no problem since the smaller marks caused no real distortion. It might be interesting to note one can still tell whether or not it is solid silver by the shape of the cartouche, thus you can leave your loupe at home, when eating in a French home. The back a spoon is not the “dessous” since that would mean “underneath” (something like saying the English drive on the wrong side of the road), but the same word as in English “le dos” meaning the back. When they say “le bas du manche” I would take that as meaning the lower part of the handle (the back of the spoon always being the side it is marked on). That is at least in current French, I don’t know how long these terms have been used. Finally it might be worth noting that in the 18th century and to some extent later, patterns or styles used in both France and Britain, originated in France (sometimes decades earlier) and the styles rarely went the other way. Although here everyone more often use the names given by the English. Maurice IP: Logged |
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