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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 Continental / International Silver
 Spoon marks ID
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| Author | Topic: Spoon marks ID |
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Patrick Vyvyan Posts: 640 |
posted 08-09-2004 10:34 AM
  
Can anyone please help me identify the marks on these two spoons: Thanks IP: Logged |
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adelapt Posts: 418 |
posted 08-09-2004 02:30 PM
I'm tempted to say that if you don't know, what hope have the rest of us! IP: Logged |
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ozfred Posts: 87 |
posted 08-09-2004 11:01 PM
I'd be tempted to look at Spain &/or a Spanish colony as a possibility. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 08-09-2004 11:50 PM
On the other hand, both Denmark and Norway used full year date stamps at various times. Did Spain? IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 08-10-2004 06:54 AM
Maybe Maltese Silver? IP: Logged |
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labarbedor Posts: 353 |
posted 08-10-2004 11:04 AM
My guess is that it is latin American. Prolongo is a Spanish name and Abela can be. Since I have never heard of a local named Prolongo, I would think it would be an owners stamp, more often found in Spanish Colonial silver. The syle of the piece would help, how about a photo. Maurice IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 08-10-2004 11:29 AM
The reason I suggested Maltese was that the date reminded me of the date mark in my rpior post 1830 EC R ?? (Maltese silver) The one book I have on maltese doesn't mention Prolongo but it does mention several Abela silversmiths:
IP: Logged |
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Patrick Vyvyan Posts: 640 |
posted 08-10-2004 12:28 PM
Many thanks indeed to everyone who has commented on these marks so far. Here are images of the spoons (I need a camera, not a scanner, I'm sorry): Each measures 20.5 cm in length. IP: Logged |
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labarbedor Posts: 353 |
posted 08-11-2004 10:48 AM
There not like anything I have ever seen in Spanish Colonial. If the engraving is very sophisticated Scott may well be right. IP: Logged |
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Arg(um)entum Posts: 304 |
posted 08-12-2004 12:11 AM
Patrick, I'll speculate that the design of the mark (crowned shield) is derived from a design recurrent in Spanish marks. So the answer (or origin) is likely to be somewhere in your wider neighbourhood. I'll vote with adelapt!  [This message has been edited by Arg(um)entum (edited 08-12-2004).] IP: Logged |
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blakstone Posts: 493 |
posted 08-12-2004 11:34 PM
I'd vote for Spanish. "Marcas de la Plata Espanõla y Virreinal" by A. Fernández et al. shows a city mark that is quite similar to the ones on your spoons: that of the city of Malága in the province of Andalucia. Technically, Malága's mark depicts the city's patrons - Sts. Cyrianus and Paula - on its ramparts, all within a crowned shield, but in its worn state the mark on your spoons looks very like the one illustrated in the text. Moreover, there was indeed an assay master ("marcadore" in Spanish) named Josquín Prolongo Garcia working in Malága 1861-1882. "Prolongo Garcia" is a double last name and while the book does not illustrate his mark, it does give several examples of other marcadores with double last names using only the first of the two. Mateo Martinez Moreno and Antonio Merino Jiminez, for instance, two 19th century marcadores from nearby Córdoba, used "MARTZ" or "MARTINEZ" and "A. MERIN" or "A. MERINO", respectively. There is no reason to suppose that Prolongo Garcia would not have used "PROLONGO" as his mark. I should point out, too, that he is the only 19th century Spanish marcadore of this surname listed in the text. There are problems, of course. The 1863 date fits well into Prolongo Garcia's time frame; 1846 does not. The "1846" is quite legible, but do my eyes deceive me or is that actually "3863" and therefore not a date at all? Hmmm. Regarding the 1846 date (which it certainly seems to be), Fernández' text fails me: he does not list a marcadore for Malága from 1833 (where he lists Rodrigo Pacheo for that single year) until 1861 (where he lists Prolongo Garcia). Judging from the rest of the text, the position of marcadore in Spain was apparently a clubby and often dynastic one: it is not uncommon to find a marcadore succeeded by his son or someone of the same surname. There may have been another Prolongo working 1833-1861, or perhaps even Josquín Prolongo Garcia himself. I have found a few examples of marcadores' marks outside the dates given in the text, which are acknowledged often to be estimates. (The dates for Malága marcadores seem pretty exact, though.) Also, I notice that while "PROLONGO" is common to both items, the other names are different: one is "R. ABELA" and the other appears to be "-ARI-". Do we have two makers and one marcadore, or the other way around? Since the spoons were apparently made as a set - or at least to match one another - it makes more sense to me that we have one assay master (whose mark would appear on all items made in his jurisdiction during a particular time frame) and two makers (whose marks would appear only on their wares). Again, I have come across 19th Spanish silver clearly made as a set with a single marcadore's mark and date but with different makers. But who knows? Either way, I think Spain - and Malága in particular - is the likeliest candidate. The clearly Spanish surnames, the Spanish form of the marks (maker, marcadore, city mark and often the date), and the coincidence of a Malága marcadore with the name Prolongo lead me to that conclusion. And, in my opinion, as has been mentioned, the spoons just don't quite look colonial, nor (but for the date) the marks particularly Maltese. Quite a puzzle. IP: Logged |
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Patrick Vyvyan Posts: 640 |
posted 08-15-2004 09:43 AM
Once more very many thanks for all your contributions. I've sent an e-mail to the Málaga Historical Museum (which is closed to the public at the moment) in the hope of finding someone with local knowledge. I shall also contact Santiago's Decorative Arts Museum (likewise closed to the public for the moment). If these spoons are from southern South America, can anyone suggest literature? I do remember seeing a reference once to 19th century Argentinian silver marks, but I can't remember where! Thanks again IP: Logged |
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blakstone Posts: 493 |
posted 08-15-2004 04:02 PM
Here are some good South American silver reference books. These are from a bibliography I've been compiling from various sources. I haven't seen all of them so I can't vouch for them personally, but I'm told that they are all helpful. Argentina Brazil [mostly Portugal, but covers colonial Brazil] Brazil [Rio de Janeiro] Bolivia Chile Ecuador [Azuay] Paraguay Venezuela IP: Logged |
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