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Mystery ship mark on knives

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Author	Topic: Mystery ship mark on knives
TVP Posts: 10 Registered: Mar 2005	posted 03-30-2005 02:11 AM [26-0303] I am curious about a set of knives that I found in a thrift store. I have a very small collection of sterling, silverplate and stainless. I also have several reference books and can usually identify pieces -- but these knives have me stumped! I have done some Web searches too, also without luck. The knives (I have about 9 total, and all but one are 10 1/8 inches long) appear to be old, have steel blades, but I don't know what the handles are made from. The handles are unmarked. But the blades do have a mark -- most are marked with a S (ship) F, but one with the same handle design is marked V (ship) S. Also, could the handles be pewter? When I first found them I thought they were either sterling or silverplate, but now I'm not sure. There is no plate wear that I can find. And they do have tarnish, and I don't know that pewter ever tarnishes (I have some pewter pieces, but they are newer, so it's not a good comparison). I would love to know the maker and/or what country they were possibly made in and the approximate age of these knives. Half the fun of collecting for me is trying to figure out what I have found -- but I think I need some expert help with these. Thank you. IP: Logged
Dale Posts: 2132 Registered: Nov 2002	posted 03-30-2005 11:32 PM Nifty pieces. The pattern looks like an Art Nouveau one. Where it is from is anyone's guess. My own personal guess would be Denmark. The length points to European origin. The ship under sail seems somehow Nordic, but I could be very wrong. Thank you for giving the length. It is so important in looking at silver to know dimensions. Which really help in zeroing in on places. Yes, pewter will tarnish. IP: Logged
TVP Posts: 10 Registered: Mar 2005	posted 03-31-2005 12:49 AM Thank you so much for the information and ideas (I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one that found these knives interesting and beautiful). Art Nouveau for the design sure seems right, which, I guess, would place them in the late 1800s. To me, the ship seems a little unusual (not like an English or Dutch sailing ship) so maybe I should find a ship/sailing history buff to show the mark to. Maybe that would help me locate their possible origin. Also, is there a way to know if something is pewter -- or is this just a skill that comes with experience? And one other question -- did the Art Nouveau movement occur across all or most of Western Europe? Maybe I can figure out something by a process of elimination! Again, thank you for the comments and interest. This is a wonderful forum. I have spent many hours browsing and learning so much! IP: Logged
tmockait Posts: 963 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 03-31-2005 01:04 AM I have been on a couple of 18th century three-masted warships and seen others in maritime museums. None looks quite like this. The mark seems to be a stylized represenation of an 18th-19th c. vessel, not an accurate image, so I doubt a checking a guide to vessles will help much. The maker's marks will probably help you more if some one has a source that lists it. Nice pieces though. Good luck. Tom IP: Logged
Dale Posts: 2132 Registered: Nov 2002	posted 03-31-2005 11:31 PM Usually with old silver, knives are not the best prospects for research. Kife marking seems to have long been an erratic and haphazard undertaking. It seems odd that only knives would show up in the thrift store, but that does happen. Usually with older silver, there are no knives. Keep on digging and you might find a fork or spoon with better marks. Pewter is a somewhat vague term in the Antiques Trade. And, silverplating was frequently done on pewter. Which makes things even more complicated. Are there no funny little symbols at all on the handles? Usually they are right near where the blade joins the handle. Art Nouveau was a world wide movement. Japan, India and South America produced wonderful Art Nouveau. Very little seems to be known about the Art Nouveau silverplate of Latin America. The mark is apparently that of the blade maker. Who may be someone different from the handle maker. Is there anyone here who knows of a source on knife blade marks? I have never been totally clear on the rather common 'rostfrei' one. IP: Logged
TVP Posts: 10 Registered: Mar 2005	posted 04-01-2005 02:02 AM First, I believe Rostfrei is the German equivalent of "stainless", meaning "rust-free". I see many German stainless pieces marked with Rostfrei, just like our everyday stainless flatware is usually marked with the word "stainless". Next, on the knives, I am now quite convinced that they are pewter (the handles). I have spent some hours doing research on pewter and have found out a few things. First, antique pewter is described as being a "mellow silver' color, and this fits. Antique pewter alloy is comprised of mostly tin, with other metals added, such as lead and copper. This might explain a slightly greenish tinge to the tarnish on my knives. Antique pewter does tarnish, while modern is tarnish resistant. Pewter use reached a peak in the 17th century, but the Victorian age and electroplating spelled its demise for table utensils. Yet, at that same time, pewter was being used to cast pieces in the Art Nouveau style. I looked very carefully at my knives with the best magnification I have for any marks on the handles and still could find nothing. This makes me think these knives are not from England, as all pewter was required by law to be marked after 1503. Thank you again for the information and comments, I do appreciate it! IP: Logged
Arg(um)entum Posts: 304 Registered: Apr 2002	posted 04-01-2005 03:12 AM As Dale put it, "Pewter is a somewhat vague term in the Antiques Trade." I don't think that you should look at the question as 'either silver or plate or pewter'. There is a good possibility that the handles are from one of the 'non-silver' silver substitutes such as Neusilber, Alpacca, and other branded names. They are all part of a continuous series of alloys of copper, zink, nickel and occasionally small amounts of other metals to give them specific qualities (or at least to pretend they do in order to register a patent). Pewter is really part of that group except that I believe older pewter also included lead which has mercifully been abandoned. Your best bet, IMO, is to concentrate your search on finding a likely nationality of the type of ship representation shown on the blades. But even this will give you no more than a good guess - the blades could have been replacements of the original ones added early in the 20th C. IP: Logged
tmockait Posts: 963 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 04-01-2005 08:32 PM A search using "square-rigged ships" will yield maritime museum sites with profile views of ships, some listed by country. However, I will be very surprised if this helps much. The vessel on the knives is a stylized sketch that probably does not correspond to any specific ship design of the 18th or 19th c. (e.g., no rigging, bow and stern, identical, etc.). You might, however, search the silver marks of nations with a strong maritime tradition and see what turns up. Here is the link to maritime museum sites: National Maritime Museum Note, this link is not to silver site. Good luck, Tom IP: Logged
TVP Posts: 10 Registered: Mar 2005	posted 04-02-2005 12:49 AM I think you are right. I have just spent the last hour looking at ship pics. The mark ship image could represent any number of ships from many countries! I think my best hope is to keep my eye out for another piece with the same ship mark, or maybe (slim chance) same handle design. I think patience and occasional web searches may eventually turn something up. But I did take a couple of the knives into work today to put on the scanner and get a better pic of the mark, and also show the greenish tinge to the tarnish. I'll see if these are going to show up for us. IP: Logged
tmockait Posts: 963 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 04-02-2005 01:06 AM The fun of this hobby is in the hunt! I am really curious what your very interesting piece will turn out to be. I just found a copy of Wyler's Book of Old Silve and will check it when it arrives. Some of the members with more extenisve resources may yet find the mark. Thanks for sharing such an interesting piece. Tom IP: Logged
salmoned Posts: 336 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 04-04-2005 07:32 PM TVP, are you saying that Rostfrei is written on the blades? The current term for stainless steel is "INOX", although they may be interchangeable. Those handle photos do show a yellowish tinge similar to "nickel silver" alloys. IP: Logged
TVP Posts: 10 Registered: Mar 2005	posted 04-04-2005 09:01 PM No, there is not a "Rostfrei" or an "INOX" on my knives (blades or handles), I was responding to a comment that Dale made (3/31- last paragraph) that he was unclear what the word "Rostfrei" on many knife blades meant (unrelated to the mark on my knife blades). [This message has been edited by TVP (edited 04-04-2005).] IP: Logged

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