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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 Continental / International Silver
 Best strategy for French flatware
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| Author | Topic: Best strategy for French flatware |
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swearinger Posts: 2 |
posted 11-03-2005 10:19 PM
  
[26-0761] The look of 19th century French silverware is captivating, but all the sets I've seen are spoons and forks only.The knives are sold separately and seem to all have ivory handles. Here's my question. I know that 18th century flatware makers had a hard time figuring out how to make knives, but is there an alternative to the ivory-handled ones? I plan on using the silver fairly frequently and I don't see ivory as being a good idea. Thanks IP: Logged |
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Kayvee Posts: 204 |
posted 11-04-2005 04:20 PM
I don't think it was lack of technical expertise that kept French silversmiths from making knives, but rather the fact that knife makers or "couteliers" were a separate trade, and silversmiths could not infringe on their territory. However by the mid-19th C. the two had begun to collaborate and French silversmiths made flatware sets with silver handled knives, with the blades still being supplied by the couteliers. Even then many silver flatware services were sold without matching knives for several reasons. First, because a flatware service traditionally was purchased as a wedding gift and including knives in a wedding gift was considered bad luck. Second, silver was sold by weight and not being all silver, knives could not be weighed. Using mother-of-pearl or ivory or ebony handled knives is quite authentic and wouldn't look out of place on your table set with 19th C. French flatware. These knives can't go in a dishwasher, but otherwise are sturdy. If you absolutely must have a silver handled knife, an alternative might be to buy modern knives in a 19th C. style that would harmonize with your flatware service. You most likely would need to purchase these from a French maker as North American makers usually don't make knives with oversize Continental dimensions. IP: Logged |
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akgdc Posts: 289 |
posted 11-05-2005 07:13 AM
It is possible to find early-19th-century French silver-handled dinner knives, although they are scarce (as most early knives are, because they were often discarded after the blades rusted or the pitch-filled handles broke). Here is a set of six French dinner knives that, although without hallmarks, can be dated to c. 1830-1848. That's because the handles are engraved with the armorials of King Louis-Philippe, the last king of France. The silver-plated blades are stamped with the maker's signature "TOURON, BTE FEUR DU ROI/RUE RICHELIEU, 113. PARIS," meaning, "Touron, by appointment knife maker to the King," and then the address. Moreover, I acquired these along with a letter dated 1851 in which an American merchant visiting Paris writes home to his wife in Connecticut, telling how he had just bought the knives at an auction at the Tuileries Palace of furniture and tablewares belonging to the former monarch (who had been overthrown in 1848). Chinaware from this sale is still not uncommon on the French antiques market, although this is the only flatware I have seen. And yes, I do use the king's knives (on special occasions)! Another option, if French knives are too hard to find, is English Georgian table knives with replaced stainless blades, which are more commonly found and are of suitable dimensions. I don't like mixing together modern machine-made pieces with antique handmade flatware, because the quality, patina, etc look so glaringly different ... it's like wearing a $10 necktie with your Savile Row suit. IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 11-07-2005 02:25 PM
I have a set of banquet knives from the 1890's that look similar to yours (but, not from a king!). I think it is so interesting that even though at that time France was very far from America that Amercia was copying their styles. Except that mine is 50 years later. Was America that far behind in styles? IP: Logged |
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akgdc Posts: 289 |
posted 11-08-2005 07:41 AM
Outwest, I think it's more that this style - a variant of the Thread-and-Shell pattern - is a classic one that has been continuously used and adapted since the 18th century, in England as well as on the Continent. It is true, though, that in the early period, the French were the innovators in flatware design. Patterns like Fiddle and Fiddle-Thread, etc, took decades to cross the English Channel (or La Manche, if you prefer), let alone the Atlantic. IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 11-08-2005 11:29 PM
To the original poster. I have a set of Whiting Imperial Queen Banquet size knives from1890's. They are American, but they may coordinate well and are large enough- 10 1/4 inches long. I just found out what they were so I have to pretend to be knowledgeable Here. Here is a picture of one. I think they look similar to the above pictures even if a tiny bit over the top: I have no idea how much they'd cost, but I know they have some on that auction place sometimes. Ivory handled English ones could work, too. Modern ones wouldn't look right, would they? They would be glaringly new. Is there a reason you want them all to be French? I mean, It's pretty hard to find a full set of 19th century flatware. Sometimes it is fun to have different, but coordinating patterns. If you want everything to match it might be better to buy a set from the 1950's. I know there are still full sets around of those. But, if you want French it might be fun to hunt for the perfect ones. IP: Logged |
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Marc Posts: 414 |
posted 11-09-2005 04:03 PM
Hi there Outwest.. Imp Queen dinner knives can be expensive..! Marc IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 11-09-2005 06:15 PM
quote: I get the same as you have on both. IP: Logged |
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swearinger Posts: 2 |
posted 11-09-2005 09:33 PM
You folks are amazingly generous with your knowledge. Thank you. IP: Logged |
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