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posted 06-17-2008 04:58 PM            

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This tablespoon was purchased with full assurance that it is Russian, but without "full" marks can anyone confirm this please?

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posted 06-18-2008 12:22 AM            

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I would regard this as Russian. Marking is a somewhat haphazard process, particularly Russian marking. Have seen sets where only a few larger pieces had Assay Office marks. It looked like there had been a test of a few random items. When these worked out, they let the rest of the set go. Paulson gives 4 makes with these initials, VK. Two look probable, but wiser folks than me should weigh in. Nice spoon.

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posted 06-19-2008 01:41 PM            

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I would be more caution. The Russian assaying system was very strict, even sets of small tea spoons or salt spoons were fully marked with town, assayer, purity and makers marks. I also see it untypical for russian silver to have two makers marks side by side.

I would say there seem to be a miss interpretation that silver items marked with the 84 zolotnik is automatically authentic russian. I believe also that some of the countries around russia also used the 84 zolotnik mark. There are also a lot of items with inadequate markings of which many are clearly fakes. If some of the mentioned marks are missing then a mark has been worn of to be authentic because originally silver items in Russia were fully marked.

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posted 06-19-2008 03:05 PM            

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I, too, think it is Russian. I am not too troubled by the seemingly incomplete marks. I am sure in the history of Russian silver, not every single item received every single hallmark. This just looks like a handsome, 19C Russian spoon.

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posted 06-20-2008 03:10 AM            

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I rather believe that the spoon is from Poland or other country where also the 84 zolotnik was used as it does not have the other required Russian marks. Here is an example of a 19th century hallmarking from Poland:

I agree that the spoon is from mid to end of 19th century.

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posted 06-28-2008 09:42 AM            

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What is today Poland was divided between Russia, Germany and Austria-Hungary during the 19th century. Marking systems accorded with those of the imperial power, so this would be from Russian Poland.

Tom

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posted 06-28-2008 05:52 PM            

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Part of the problem is that the concept of 'Russia' is somewhat vague. In the 19th century, parts of Poland and Lithuania were governed by Russia. In the 20th century, parts of Germany and Finland were absorbed into Russia. So, when I use the term I need to emphasize that I am speaking about the Russian empire, not just Russia.

The 84 finess mark is also used in parts of the Mideast.

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posted 06-28-2008 07:29 PM            

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Thanks to all for your comments. Each one is worth weighing and considering.

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posted 06-29-2008 03:37 AM            

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You are correct that parts of 'Poland' was governed by imperial Russia so the hallmark that I showed would be 'Poland' governed by Russia and the marking system according to the imperial Russia.

I am still cautious about that the assayer would not have hallmarked all the silver items (spoons etc.) as it was his/her job or assistants job to do it. There were tough punishments to silversmiths and assayers if the job was not done according to the rules.

One thing that is important that after 1860's the imperial Russia assayer hallmarking was made with one stamp which was stamped next to the silversmiths mark. The stamp included the finess, city and assayers marks so at least the spoon could not have been hallmarked according imperial Russia hallmarking system after 1860's (considering those areas where the hallmarking was functioned well and were no disruptions). So this could tell that the spoon is hallmarked before 1860's if the spoon is hallmarked somewhere in those areas that was ruled or governed by imperial Russia.

One theory is that the spoon might be from an area where there were turmoils and the assaying system was not functioning well. I myself belive more in this possibility or that the spoon comes from some other country neighbouring imperial Russia and where the 84 silver finess was used. I guess that it is more likely that the spoon is from an area in Europe than the Middle-East as the spoon has a European design and with typical European decoration.

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posted 06-29-2008 06:25 AM            

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I am in Kiev at the moment and can assure you that "Russia" is still a rather vague term, much to the disquiet of many in Eastern Europe!

Tom

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