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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 Continental / International Silver
 Are these real English hallmarks?
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| Author | Topic: Are these real English hallmarks? |
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Primroy Posts: 42 |
posted 02-08-2007 10:39 AM
  
[26-1346] I read where one could post an eBay auction so as to generate discussion on what to avoid. I thought the following marks had a alien look to them. Both the bust and lion have a skinny look. Are these actual English hallmarks? The final price seemed healthy enough, but is not always a true indicator to an objects genuineness. The following quote: IP: Logged |
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argentum1 Posts: 602 |
posted 02-08-2007 11:21 AM
Please show the mark on one of the unbroken spoons. Thank you. IP: Logged |
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tmockait Posts: 963 |
posted 02-08-2007 11:36 AM
A picture of the complete set of marks may help, but so far everything about these hallmarks looks off. 1877 may be a commemorative date added to older silver, but the design does not make it seem likely. If it was a commemorative date added to a newer (post 1877) set, then the lion's head should not have a crown. In an case, the lion's head (London townmark) looks wrong in general. The only logical explanation for the human head would be a duty mark, but again the silhouette does not conform with duty marks I have seen. IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 02-08-2007 12:09 PM
I believe these may be Chinese export. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 02-08-2007 12:14 PM
I believe you will find that these are Chinese Export. This pattern (King's Pattern) is commonly found, and the marks are obvious imitations, not exact copies. There was an article in Silver Magazine not long ago with a comprehensive treatment of the marks found on Chinese export silver (July/August, 2004). The maker is Hon Cheong, Canton, 1840-50. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 02-08-2007).] IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 02-08-2007 02:44 PM
In the last photo it appears that at least one other of the spoons is broken as well, though it may just be a crack that only goes 90% of the way through or it may be glued together. That is an odd break in the one shown in two pieces - the edges of the break do not seem to line up with one appearing fairly straight across and the other a little jagged. Either a piece is missing or the pieces are from two different spoons. In any even, I wonder whether these spoons were cast to have broken like that. IP: Logged |
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FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 02-08-2007 05:31 PM
Just a hunch, but I think what happened is that one of the two pieces was flipped in that third photo, so we're seeing the bottom of one side and the top of the other. The last photo certainly does appear to show a crack, although I suppose it could be a poor solder joint. The description was from "a certified appraiser", so I'd hope they would've mentioned if another was cracked.... I've never handled any Chinese Export in a pattern like this, but I would guess -- given the likely technologies available in a 19th-century Chinese shop -- that they would more likely be cast than die-stamped, and perhaps cast in parts and then soldered together. In general in Chinese Export I see a lot of handwork (soldering, chasing, engraving and cutting, etc.), but I can't think of any I've had or have that include heavy machine work like die-stamping. IP: Logged |
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Primroy Posts: 42 |
posted 02-08-2007 10:25 PM
I actually found more Chinese export flatware on eBay. Are these more desirable than the actual English spoons to collectors? IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 02-08-2007 10:30 PM
To those collectors who specialize in it, yes. IP: Logged |
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FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 02-09-2007 10:01 AM
 "It's just what you need if you like that sort of thing" There probably are more active collectors of English sterling in the world than there are of Chinese Export silver, but there's also certainly more 19th-century English sterling flatware than there is Chinese. Until the last 10-20 years you virtually couldn't give away the Chinese Export; there were very few collectors, and the odds of finding one in pre-internet days were slim. The last decade has seen an increase in interest in Chinese Export silver, along with many other categories previously considered relatively uninteresting (e.g., Mexican silver), and this has been helped along by increased information published and/or distributed on the web. But always remember the other old dictum on collecting: Every book that comes out is intended to increase the value and marketability of the author's collection. It is of course exaggerated, but all too many books -- including some we come to rely on -- have that as a main purpose, and as a consequence the research is not always as reliable as it might be if scholarly interest were the main motivation. This tends expecially to be the case in books intended as value guides (although there are exceptions there as well); if it gives values, be suspicious. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 02-09-2007 01:50 PM
1)Forget about what other people collect. 2) Forget about hype you see in articles and books. 3) Really forget about silver as an "investment." If you don't collect for the pure joy of it then your collecting will become just another a chore. Find something to collect that blows your skirt up, then go for it. IP: Logged |
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tmockait Posts: 963 |
posted 02-09-2007 02:58 PM
I totally agree with Kimo, whose comments remind me of something a wine steward once told me: "Our ancestors said that you should drink red wine with meet and white wine with fish, but they are all dead, so drink what like!" Tom [This message has been edited by tmockait (edited 02-09-2007).] IP: Logged |
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DB Posts: 252 |
posted 02-09-2007 11:40 PM
The pattern is a relatively common one in Chinese export flatware, apart from the marks it is always easy to spot it, because it is much heavier than English examples. Apart from the Silver Magazine (mentioned above) a very good book about the subject: H.A.Crosby Forbes, John Devereux Kernan and Ruth S. Wilkins: Chinese Export silver 1785 to 1885, Museum of the American China Trade, Milton, Mass. 1975 ------------------ IP: Logged |
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