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Another French spoon

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Author	Topic: Another French spoon
denimrs Posts: 102 Registered: Dec 2005	posted 01-13-2011 11:20 AM Reading about the French teaspoons the past few days reminded me of the one piece of French silver in my silver drawer -- a spoon I use as a dessert spoon. My silver books don't really cover French silver so I have been unable to learn anything about it. I am hoping someone here will be able to enlighten me as to its age, maker, etc. The spoon is 6 3/4 long with pretty bright-cut decoration on both sides of the handle (at least I think it is bright-cut?) There are two marks in the bowl. On the right is this mark, which I am assuming is something about silver content and/or where made? There are 2 images because I could not get one good one: And, on the left side of the bowl is this mark which I am assuming is a maker mark? Thanks in advance to anyone who can explain these marks! Elizabeth IP: Logged
Kayvee Posts: 204 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 01-13-2011 12:14 PM Your pretty spoon was made by Henri-Louis Chenailler, working in Paris at 277, rue Saint-Martin between 3 January 1839 and 11 June 1859, when de died. The Minerva head mark in an octagonal reserve is the French silver standard mark for 950 silver used beginning in 1838. Hope this helps. IP: Logged
denimrs Posts: 102 Registered: Dec 2005	posted 01-13-2011 01:56 PM Kayvee, Yes, that is wonderful to know. Thank you so much! Elizabeth IP: Logged
ahwt Posts: 2334 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 01-14-2011 07:46 AM I don’t think that your pattern is a bright cut as the decoration does not appear to be made by cutting silver out of the surface. I think a different tool was used for your spoon. Both methods made beautiful spoons as your spoon shows. [This message has been edited by ahwt (edited 01-14-2011).] IP: Logged
denimrs Posts: 102 Registered: Dec 2005	posted 01-14-2011 10:03 AM ahwt, Thank you for the information about bright cut. It was a term I knew because I had two English spoons which I was told had bright cut decoration added years after they were made. However, I did not actully know, or consider, that it involved cutting away some silver to make the decoration. Now I realize that it did show that had been done to them, but I see it has not been done on this one. Nice to have learned this. Elizabeth IP: Logged
agleopar Posts: 850 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 01-15-2011 11:27 PM I do think this is a form of bright cut... more wiggle or wriggle work which is also done with a graver or burin, like bright cut. I think if you look very closely the lines look like zig zags and they are done with a tiny flat graver that is rocked back and forth as it is being pushed along. If it was just pushed and held straight it would cut a trench in a straight line. It is actually very easy to do wriggle work, to do it this small and this accurately is tricky. The tiny straight double lines of dots are done with a different graver, a sharp thin point. Bright cut of the usual sort is done with other gravers as well, like a half round and square. Good bright cut takes a great amount of control and very sharp and polished gravers that need to be resharpened and polished frequently. It is worth using high magnification to look at it and compare well done to mediocre. The engravers who did it well were masters. IP: Logged
Hose_dk Posts: 400 Registered: May 2008	posted 01-16-2011 03:21 AM this deep cut was invented by silversmiths to protect igainst plated silver ware. When making old sheffild plate the maker could do some engraving. Like what we see at your spoon. But when cutting to deep the cupper would be visible. Then people could see that it was not solid silver. Your spoon is engraved, but I would neither call that deep cut into the silver. IP: Logged
agleopar Posts: 850 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 01-16-2011 09:24 AM Hose_dk that is very interesting, it is always fascinating to find the origins for designs - thanks. IP: Logged
denimrs Posts: 102 Registered: Dec 2005	posted 01-16-2011 12:43 PM agleopar and Hose_dk, Thanks for the additional and very interesting information about bright-cut. Here is a little story about the origin of my interest in it. The first time I went to London, in the 70's, I visited the Silver Vaults and there I bought a spoon that was bright cut front and back, in the bowl as well as the handle. I thought it beautiful. When I checked the marks, it turned out to be late 1700's as I recall. The next year I returned to London and bought another at Harrods that was not as old, but still quite old. I do recall that one had the mark of William Eley & William Fearn. When I got back to NYC I decided to see if I could find more to make a real collection. In my search, I went to several of the best dealers in English silver and at each place they turned up their nose at my spoons and said they "never" have anything like that. I wondered why and finally asked and was told that the bright-cut decorations were added way after the spoons were made and so it ruined them and made them worthless. One of the men told me that the bright-cut was the work of Victorian era ladies, done sort of as busy work much as needlework was done. After that I stopped looking and have always wondered if what I was told was true. Earlier this year, after joining the forum, I planned to post pictures and ask about all of this. But, I was careless with the spoons when I took them to show a friend at lunch and when my back was turned, someone stole them before I realized they were no longer in my possession. So, I can't show you the pictures I had not yet taken. But, they were beautifully cut all over front and back. I tried eating with one once and it was a very strange sensation on the tongue. Elizabeth [This message has been edited by denimrs (edited 01-16-2011).] IP: Logged
Hose_dk Posts: 400 Registered: May 2008	posted 01-16-2011 03:41 PM very likely that engraving has been added. I soppose that it excists, but I have several pieces deep cut. I have a danish fish laddle made 1799. And yesterday I received 2 tea spoons from Edingborg no year mark but both have tax mark of King Georg III (mark 1784/85) hey that must be a rare mark or am I mistaken. Should I post a post with them? IP: Logged
agleopar Posts: 850 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 01-16-2011 10:52 PM Elizabeth, sad story about your spoons. The comments from the experts are typical of those who focus on one aspect, in this case the original form of the spoon at the expense of the added embellishment. I have to admit that I am one of those, but only because I love the pure form not because I dislike the bright cut. Just the opposite I love good bright cut. So I look for spoons that were made with it from the start. By the way it is not true that "ladies" did it as busy work. I doubt there were any female engravers - I have never heard of any back then - there are plenty very good ones now. IP: Logged
denimrs Posts: 102 Registered: Dec 2005	posted 01-17-2011 12:44 AM quote: Originally posted by agleopar: So I look for spoons that were made with it from the start. By the way it is not true that "ladies" did it as busy work. agleopar, That was what came to my mind as I read the descriptions of how bright-cut was done. It did not seem likely that it was done as I had been told, by ladies of the house. And, I have come to understand how embellishment added later does alter the original intent and so to most would be harmful rather than good. Even so, the work that was done was beautiful -- very nice design and very balanced and well executed. I sure wish I had pictures! IP: Logged
Kayvee Posts: 204 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 01-17-2011 08:39 AM Just to clarify, the engraving on the French spoon pictured is original to the spoon. IP: Logged
agleopar Posts: 850 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 01-17-2011 08:41 AM Yes, some of the added work is very good and the irony is that in another 100 years the 300 year old spoon with 200 year old added bright cut or chased berries will be considered special... You raise the point that collecting these spoons now might be catching a wave that grows. It might be wise to get to know what the best is and get the hybrids with only the best. IP: Logged
agleopar Posts: 850 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 01-17-2011 08:43 AM Kayvee, yes! IP: Logged
denimrs Posts: 102 Registered: Dec 2005	posted 01-17-2011 10:19 AM quote: Originally posted by agleopar: .....You raise the point that collecting these spoons now might be catching a wave that grows. It might be wise to get to know what the best is and get the hybrids with only the best. And, that is what I had in mind when I decided to photograph the two I had and show them to this forum. But, my own carelessness made that impossible. I hope they ended up with someone who will appreciate them. IP: Logged

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