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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 Continental / International Silver
 tastevin with multiple halmarks...
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| Author | Topic: tastevin with multiple halmarks... |
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Capitaine Haddock Posts: 11 |
posted 03-16-2009 09:52 AM
  
[26-1823] Hello, I have a French tastevin in silver (sterling) with various hallmarks from various silversmith or "factory" and I wonder how is that possible. Beside the "minerve" to certify it's sterling, there is 2 "Cardeilhac" marks (the word "Cardeilhac" in capital and the Cardeilhac halmark), one Christofle mark (the one with the bee and the stars)and one unknown (a losange with 7.B.8 in it). So, that is a total of 4 hallmarks from 3 different silver makers) and I wonder how that is possible. Please notice there is a coin (Napoleon III 5 francs in silver) as bottom of the tastevin. Any clue? IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 03-16-2009 11:33 AM
Please add some clear, well lighted photos of the overall object, and a closeup of the markings. There are so many different markings used by countries around the world that unless clear photos are provided the best anyone can do is guess. IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 03-16-2009 02:02 PM
It sounds like a very special one.I've only one fork with two names stamped over eachother but that stands in the shadow about having a piece of silver with three different silversmith marks, I'm curious about the photo's if it's possible and the opinions.Succes! IP: Logged |
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Kayvee Posts: 204 |
posted 03-16-2009 04:15 PM
The Christofle mark with the initials OC, a bee and 3 stars in a lozenge on 950 standard silver dates to after 1935. Christofle and Cardeilhac had a long association, with Christofle subcontracting their silver manufacturing to Cardeilhac, Christofle being a silverplate manufacturer principally. Christofle purchased Cardeilhac in the early 1950's. Having both makers' marks could date the piece to the time that the two companies were merging. Christofle might have marked Cardeilhac objects in stock when they took over the firm. You don't say where the marks are located. You might expect to see a set of marks for each maker on the bowl and another on the handle or thumb piece of the tastevin. A picture is essential to make any other comments. IP: Logged |
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Capitaine Haddock Posts: 11 |
posted 03-17-2009 04:03 AM
 Here is a picture of it. The first and 3rd marks are from Cardeilhac, the 2nd one is Christofle and the 4th one is the one I don't know. The "Minerva" is not on this picture, it's more to the right, just by the ear. Hope that will be helpful... Thanks for your help, anyway. IP: Logged |
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Capitaine Haddock Posts: 11 |
posted 03-17-2009 06:42 AM
Here is a close up of the marks, it's the best I can do right now...  IP: Logged |
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jersey Posts: 1203 |
posted 03-17-2009 11:47 AM
Hello Capitaine Haddock! You might try a search for the marks of Orfevre Chistofle.
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Kayvee Posts: 204 |
posted 03-17-2009 03:52 PM
Your tastevin was made by Christofle after 1935 as indicated by the maker’s mark (poinçon de responsabilté) in a lozenge. The Cardeilhac name and symbol are trademarks (marques de commerce) that have no legal status. They are meant to be a reassurance to the customer and in this case are a reminder of the connection between Christofle and Cardeilhac. As I mentioned Christofle bought Cardeilhac in the early 1950’s. Cardeilhac was a very prestigious maker and Christofle is trying to capitalize on this prestige. I do not know what the B78 mark is – perhaps a mark for the model number or an import mark to Belgium?? It is not a maker’s mark. Please look at the Minerva and see if she is the petite Minèrve that dates after 1973. The petite Minèrve is the silver standard mark for .925 sterling. Alas the French have adopted the .925 European Community standard for silver. Your tastevin incorporates a 19th century coin, but dates to the second half of the 20th century. Hope this helps. IP: Logged |
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Capitaine Haddock Posts: 11 |
posted 03-18-2009 05:22 AM
Okay, thanks to your comment, it starts to be clearer for me: So, this tastevin has been made before 1952 by Cardeilhac but sold after 1952 by Christofle... And since there is a 1867 coin in it, let say made between 1867 and 1952. Now, what could be great is to find a Cardeilhac or Christofle catalogue in which this model of tastevin appears. About the mysterious mark, that is not an import mark since I got in Bordeaux. Someone suggested it could be the hallmark of the silversmith who put the coin. The question is now to know if the coin was a part of the original object or if it has been introduced later? Personally I feel this tastevin has been originally made with the coin, because the job looks perfect, and I wonder if that was a "special edition" or a "personal order"... I like to think about the "personal order' option because that's mean it is a "one of a kind" made by a famous orfèvre... About the minerve, it just made a search and it's actually what we call "minerve 2eme titre", so it's the 800 standard and not 950. Anyway, if it's the minerve and no the "old man" it's supposed to be from 1938 or later (but I have to check again if is actually the minerve and not the old man). So, up to now, let's say between 1938 and 1952... Any clue about the "mysterious" third mark and also about the coin (original or added later)? IP: Logged |
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Kayvee Posts: 204 |
posted 03-18-2009 11:08 AM
My explanation about who made your tastevin and when it was made must have been confusing, so I'll try again. Christofle made your tastevin after 1935 as shown by their maker's mark in a lozenge. At the time of manufacture Christofle applied the Cardeilhac trademarks to add prestige to the object. Christofle had the right to use these trademarks after acquiring Cardeilhac circa 1952, so we can narrow the date of manufacture to after 1952. You say that the Minerva mark is not the new one in use since 1973. Therefore we can be even more precise about the date of manufacture - between 1952 and 1973. The coin in the bottom of the tastevin does not date the object. Old coins are often used by silver makers and jewelers to add a decorative or commemorative touch. For example, the Italian jeweler Bulgari is well-known for incorporating ancient Roman coins in their modern jewelry designs. Christofle occasionally makes limited editions of certain objects, but to my knowledge they do not do custom work as it would not be cost effective for such a large manufactory. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 03-18-2009 11:30 AM
As Kayvee mentions, incorporating old coins is not unusual in silver objects. Such coins are typically not very expensive - often they can be bought in large quantities for about the value of the silver content. They provide interest to an object and can help with the marketing by giving a relatively new object a sense of age. [This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 03-18-2009).] IP: Logged |
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Capitaine Haddock Posts: 11 |
posted 03-19-2009 04:28 AM
Ok, this time I get it! Like we say in French, I understand fast, I just need long explanation... You know, I just fall in love with silver a few months ago and this object has been my first purchase (65 euros) when I just was ignorant (I only knew Christofle brand for having this signature on my "Sundays tableware") Then, this "Christofle - Cardeilhac" is more like a "Christofle - Gallia" stuff. I'll just have now to find a Christofle catalogue - or to send a mail to Christofle museum - to find more about it, but the range 1952 - 1973 is already a strait one. Now, we still have a mystery to solve: what is that additional hallmark from??? IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 03-19-2009 07:08 AM
At internet I found a website after give the search function christofle tastevins and you look at the second website called: "winetasters" you can find the one you have together with five other coin tastevins in the 19e example of that site. They are described as 19th century pieces. Perhaps you can also e-mail the person of this site for getting the B mark explained. You can give it a try. This reaction is not for trade but for study, Thanks a lot, IP: Logged |
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Capitaine Haddock Posts: 11 |
posted 03-20-2009 06:06 AM
Thanks for the search and the tip! So amazing: the very same tastevin, just made with a different coin and a "minerve" number 1 instead of 2... More I'm searching about this object and more I like it. Well, I sent a mail to the site owner, I'll let you know the answer. Isn't here a topic about "how did you became a silver lover"? For me, everything started when I found this object looking amazing for me, like if it was "calling" me... Anyway, you are very helpful, guys! IP: Logged |
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