|
|
|
| How to Post Photos |
REGISTER (click here)
|
|
|
|
| How to Post Photos |
REGISTER (click here)
|
|
 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 Continental / International Silver
 Intricate Silver Shelf
|
 SSFFriend: Email This Page to Someone! |
next newest topic | next oldest topic |
| Author | Topic: Intricate Silver Shelf |
|
Fortunata Posts: 4 |
posted 01-18-2009 11:54 AM
  
[26-1788] Hello, I'm new to this forum, so thanks in advance. Thanks! IP: Logged |
|
silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 01-18-2009 04:18 PM
My compliments for this beautiful showned silver item. I'm also very curious about the history behind it. I looks older to me than three generations.The decoration is wonderful the six pictures gives a historical background information. It looks like it shows a important historical happening. Welcome to a important person, murder and the new succession to the throne?. The time indication looks like 17th century. At the top the figure looks like a horse head(if I'm right of course?). Down under it looks like a shield with family arms. The two standing figures above left looks like a musketeer to me and the right person a Roman or Greek person. Is the first time I see such item and perhaps you can send a sharper picture(if possible)from the left mark beside the two letter S marks. Is it possible to send also the other side of the item? Is it possible to send a detailed photo of one of the six pictures to get it more expressed? I think you may be proud to have such one in the family line. I have looked to the two S letter marks but I'm sorry couldn't find it. It will be also great when the history of the pictures can be solved. Success with the solution and hobby and enjoy this beautiful item. IP: Logged |
|
agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 01-18-2009 04:57 PM
I am afraid this may not be very helpful. My first thought was that this is a “historicist” piece of ca. 1900, but looking at your picture more closely it seems to have been put together from parts of something else. The triangular top and bottom elements (left and right in the photo) do not match the decoration of the central rectangular part and just the tops of two further picture panels remain at the bottom of the rectangular part (to the right of the photo). This sort of thing happens. I have a decanter with a silver top that was formed from an old 19th century silver watchcase, for example. That raises the question of whether the marks relate to the piece as it is now or to whatever the component on which they are stamped originally belonged to. In any event, they are not English hallmarks. Perhaps somebody else may recognise the marks or the origins of the piece. IP: Logged |
|
Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 01-18-2009 05:38 PM
Fascinating piece. The panels appear to show some sort of medieval story. Decoration of this type does appear on silverplate from the 1870's into the 1920's. Mulholland was a primary maker in this genre. The scenes are also seen on English tiles from the same period. There is even a set of Spode china showing the story of Ivanhoe. Never saw a shelf tho. IP: Logged |
|
Fortunata Posts: 4 |
posted 01-18-2009 06:19 PM
Thanks for your comments. I'll include some high res photo links below - I didn't want to break the rules right off the bat! The shelf is certainly older than the three generations that it has been in my family. The six panels appear to have been soldered into the larger piece, and they are incredibly detailed engravings. The surround appears to have been formed on a mold and then had details engraved. I have not found any hallmarks on the six small panels. I have had suggestions regarding the historical scenes ranging from the Revolt of the Netherlands (1568 - 1648), to Cromell at the end of the English civil war, to Francois, Duke of Anjou. The top left figurine has been suggested as Charles II, the right as St. Peter.
Top left figurine Top right figurine High res photo of the whole shelf High res of first panel Thanks! IP: Logged |
|
Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 01-18-2009 06:53 PM
From what I can see I would agree with Agphile that this is not what it is trying to be. It looks like it is made up from several unrelated pieces of silver or silverplate. For example, the top and bottom triangular shaped panels have a very different style of design, color, wear pattern and patina than the three rectangular center panels. The two figurines on top of the side spirals appear to be from something else as well. I would like to see more details of more parts of it but so far my thought is that it is either not any older than your grandparents though it could include a few parts from something older that have been put together to make this creation. IP: Logged |
|
Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 01-19-2009 12:45 AM
Looking at the panels, I suspect we can rule out a liturgical function for this. The story seems to be about a man being crowned by bishops, assuming there is some common theme. From the clothing, looks like late 16th to early 17th centuries. But the knights sort of throw me off. The barley cane pillars do not have capitals, which seems odd. Are there letters on the lower right, or is it my imagination? Great topic, glad you posted it. IP: Logged |
|
agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 01-19-2009 04:51 AM
If the picture panels tell a coherent story, I agree that it seems to be set in the late 16th century. However, the panels themselves look like products of ca. 1900 give or take 20 or so years. I am tempted to wonder whether their inspiration might be a historical novel of the period. I cannot be certain of their original purpose - perhaps to decorate furniture or form the sides of a box/casket. I would wonder about Hanau or Holland for their origin. The total assemblage must be a one off but all its constituent parts seem to me to be of much the same date even if in differing styles. Is the lettering Dale asks about actually the marks that were initially illustrated? IP: Logged |
|
silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 01-19-2009 06:50 AM
The screw was invited later than the 17th century that should be right. The reaction of agphile concerning the marks should not be English I will confirm from my side because can't find any S mark from this pattern. My question is about the lion mark does it not confirm it is sterling? The two letter marks are both stamped over two other marks. The right one is clearer to me and the left is printed deeper over a wider mark? The letters found by Dale should be seen by clearer photograph, if it's possible of course! Thanks for sending more detailed photo's Fortunata. So if the shelves should be dismounted/dismantled and the six pictures also, than there is a silver item with six ? under. One of the pictures is a little damaged at the rim, perhaps somebody wanted the look under? Concerning the decoration of pictures there is no real combination to recognize as one story until now. I have read a short history about Cromwell and the combination with St.Peter is a big ? to me. About the pillars constructed at the shelves they give the idea that a watch/clock or jewelry/silversmith used copper pillars from older clocks and silverplate them. The two standing figures are explained by Fortunata but has no connection with the six pictures I think. I wonder if these silverplated or sterling? plaques are reproductions in silver of old historic paintings it's nice done. The Acanthus leaf decoration was used for a long time or is reproduced for not so long ago. Not this clock but a older type, the pillars can be used in a certain period for decorate the silver plaque. IP: Logged |
|
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 01-19-2009 07:24 AM
I don't see anything on the lower right of the enlarged panel but think there might be something on the lower left. I tried blowing it up but there isn't enough detail in the image .... The marks on the bottom right of the whole item looks like the marks in the close up in Fortunata's first post ... On the bottom left of the whole item there may be another mark???? IP: Logged |
|
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 01-19-2009 09:15 AM
I agree with Agphile that the Lion Passant , although purporting to be an English Lion Passant Guardant , is probably a psuedomark. I would tend to agree also with the Ivanhoe -Waverly Novels inspired Gothic furniture period of the Victorian era although it seems better than most. Whatever it is the quality is superb. IP: Logged |
|
Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 01-21-2009 12:08 PM
Another aspect that I now see in Scott's closeups that indicate this is something made up from recycled unrelated parts to create a useable or saleable object is that there is another panel along the bottom that has been cut in half (more or less). This is a shame as it likely originally contained more nicely worked scenes. It is possible that the bottom edge of that destroyed panel was also sliced off to affix to the top of the overall group of panels since there is a strip of metal there that seems to be a bottom edge of a panel. Hopefully the person who recycled these panels did not destroy two panels to get these extra parts to make them fit that length of space. I agree that these panels likely were originally on a nice piece of furniture or woodwork. It is a shame that the original piece of furniture or whatever no longer exists, but on the other hand if it was destroyed it is nice to see at least these remnants were rescued and are still able to be appreciated even if they are on a more recently made up object. IP: Logged |
|
Fortunata Posts: 4 |
posted 01-21-2009 06:35 PM
Kimo, I think you're seeing a reflection of the panels in the bottom shelf. There are no partial panels. Fortunata IP: Logged |
|
Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 01-22-2009 01:51 PM
Thanks - I see what you are saying. IP: Logged |
|
Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 01-22-2009 02:40 PM
Kimo, I think you are on to something. If we start with the assumption that this is made up from existing parts, then we need to figure out where they came from. Using box tops makes excellent sense for the figural panels. The two standing figures resemble those found on napkin rings and, as silverhunter points out, clocks. So, where did the pillars and the top and bottom come from? IP: Logged |
|
Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 01-22-2009 02:41 PM
It is definitely a late 19th-century romantic pastiche of a a Renaissance or Baroque thing--and whoever made it didn't know the difference between Renaissance and Baroque (because few people did). Pastiche is a good word, because it means "pasted together." As disparate as the parts are, you get this in Northern European stuff--I've seen 19th-century silver Dutch wedding buckles made up of bits of earlier things. The form itself is a late-19th century concept--the "art shelf" and might even have been used to display various little Dutch silver figural sculptures. If there is a Nethernlandish history potential here, then I'd say definitely a Dutch piece--with pseudo hallmarks... IP: Logged |
|
silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 01-22-2009 07:16 PM
Here is again a dutch reaction, when this item it's made in Holland the clock (which I showed)shows a possibility of using the same parts of the twisted spirals, we have a lot of old clocks(in bad condition)here in Holland!It's easy to use the twisted spirals of a three clocks for construct these shelves. The pictures are soldered what is behind that space? Why did they didn't make it out of one piece? I don't think it is dutch because we don't have such rocky mountain formations over here. The south-west part of Holland is - 6 meter down sea level. It's sure continental but why not Great Britain, they imported the piece stamped it with a pseudo mark?. Little silver items were made from the 17th century and why should the decoration/pictures should be made and be hide by little silver items? It is a big ? to me. IP: Logged |
All times are ET | next newest topic | next oldest topic |
  |
|
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a
|
1. Public Silver Forums (open Free membership) - anyone with a valid e-mail address may register. Once you have received your Silver Salon Forum password, and then if you abide by the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines, you may start a thread or post a reply in the New Members' Forum. New Members who show a continued willingness to participate, to completely read and abide by the Guidelines will be allowed to post to the Member Public Forums. 2. Private Silver Salon Forums (invitational or $ donation membership) - The Private Silver Salon Forums require registration and special authorization to view, search, start a thread or to post a reply. Special authorization can be obtained in one of several ways: by Invitation; Annual $ Donation; or via Special Limited Membership. For more details click here (under development). 3. Administrative/Special Private Forums (special membership required) - These forums are reserved for special subjects or administrative discussion. These forums are not open to the public and require special authorization to view or post. |
|
copyright © 1993 - 2022
SM Publications
All Rights Reserved. Legal & Privacy Notices |
