posted 08-07-2006 04:20 PM            

I apologize in advance for not having photos (no digital camera!) but would appreciate any help on identifying the french makers for two pieces:

Sterling Soup ladle:

It has the Minerva (1) mark with a borgone (Spelling?) that looks like a coiled snake to me and the maker's mark is in a Diamond shape and is "T&H" with a Tulip above it and a star below it.

Does the star mean the area (our library only has one book on french marks, with no maker's marks, that says a star can mean an area, in this case Amiens).

Any ideas on the maker?

Sterling Handled Asparagus Server with a Plated Server:

It has the Minerva (1) mark on the handle but I can't make out the borgogne (?) on the other side, both are deeply incised. On the serving portion, there are two marks in rectangles "ALPFE NIDE" which I understand to mean that it is plated and the other mark is a diamond shape in a rectangle that looks like "CH" with a funny looking left-facing horse between the C and the H.

posted 08-07-2006 09:39 PM            

You seem to have a good grasp of the basics of French marks. You have given us some tantalizing information, but not enough for identification of the makers. At this point I have more questions for you than answers.

If you don't own a digital camera, could you borrow one, or scan images of the marks? It is really hard to help you without an image.

The Minerva head mark tells us that your items were made after 1838. The bigorne marks don't help in the i.d. of the maker. If you use the Search function, you'll find a lot of information about bigorne marks. In the 18th C, a symbol in the maker's mark did tell you the place or region where the maker worked. However, in the 19th C, the symbols in the maker's mark do not have that function. They only help to identify the maker. Do your makers' initials read top to bottom or left to right?

Why does the horse look funny? Is it an animal head or the whole beast?

Are you sure about the initials CH, or could they be GH?

Have you looked at the cleaned marks under at least 10X magnification?

Your supposition that the business end of the server is plated is correct, and this is quite common for larger serving pieces in France after 1838.

The name in the rectangle as you have written it does not make sense. Please use good magnification to get a better read.

I don't understand why you say the diamond shaped maker's mark is in a square. Could you explain?

If you could get some images I'm sure that someone here could give you an i.d. on your makers.

posted 08-07-2006 10:46 PM            

To answer your questions:

the makers' marks each appear to read left to right;

the horse looks "funny" because it (if it is a horse!) is just the head and chest (long point at bottom of chest) looking left, very naively drawn with what look like two or three long wisps of hair blowing in the wind (to the right)!

I have been looking at it with a 10X magnification but you are correct, I may be wrong on the lettering, the letters on the asparagus server could be "GH" and not "CH."

Also regarding the asparagus server, there are two small stamps on the top (serving) side of the "business end" equidistant from the handle. Each of these is a rectangle with (in the same direction) one reading "ALFE NIDE" (I think I misspelled this on my original message) inside and, on the other, inside of the rectangle is a diamond shape (or square turned on one point) with the CH or GH with the horse between the letters).

I am probably wrong but I assumed that the diamond shape was in the rectangle as a way of denoting that the serving end was plate (because I could not find a maker's mark on the handle of the asparagus server, just the minerva mark and bigorne - although this was even hard for me to find, I will keep looking on the handle.

posted 08-08-2006 12:09 AM            

The maker's mark on the asparagus server looks very similar to the one for Charles Halphen (which makes sense because elsewhere on the web I found a reference to his working in an alloy "alfe nide").

So, it's a goat's head and not a horse's head!

I guess my only questions on that piece would be: do marks get refined somewhat over time?

For example, on this piece, the goat does not appear to have as much detail as in the photo on the french site and is in almost full profile (on the french site it is a side view but the head is turned a bit more to the front and there is more detail on it.

Could mine be a fake or do marks get refined (e.g., I saw on the web that Halphen, at some point, made pieces for Cristofle (would those marks be slightly different, better?)

Thanks ever so much!

posted 08-09-2006 10:04 AM            

I can try to answer your questions about the appearance of French maker's marks since 1838, although I'm sure some of the silversmith members can give more technical explanations.

In France a silversmith registers his mark at an assay office by punching it on a sheet of copper. The mark consists of initials or full name plus an emblem, which often is a mnemonic device for his name or the depiction of something related to the trade such as a tool or object, all in a lozenge shaped reserve. This initial mark, made under ideal conditions, becomes the permanent record and is photographed for databases such as the one you consulted.

In real life there is normal variability in the appearance of the mark just as there is in a person's signature, due to the pressure applied when the mark is made, whether it is punched on a convex or concave surface, etc. Also normal wear and tear on an object can alter the appearance of a mark. A silversmith can change his mark if his circumstances change, for example if he goes into partnership with someone, or brings his son into the business, or his widow continues his business. Otherwise the mark stays the same and doesn't "evolve" in appearance. Neither are the marks stratified in appearance according to the prestige of the maker. For example, Puiforcat, a prestigious maker, has a very plain mark.

On the subject of the connection between Halphen, Alfénide and Christofle, please use the SMPub Search function for some interesting information.

posted 08-09-2006 03:07 PM            

Indeed, the marque I found at the french site was denoted as "variante: veuve" (dated 1877) so I guess the only mystery for me left is was this made under a marque that changed a bit by wear after it was registered by Halphen's widow or was it made by Halphen prior to 1877 but not in association with Christofle?

Oh, how you silver lovers must love these mysteries (I do, and I am very new to them!!!)

posted 10-21-2006 08:50 PM            

I enjoyed reading your post and the responses as I have 4 knives that I was about to "investigate" on one side of the handle is an impressed goat and on the other side is an impressed alfe nide. As I am just beginning down this road, am I to assume that these were made by Halphern before 1877 and that they are silverplate?

As a busy and often tired 52 year old mom of a 7 yr old male hockey player, my research time is limited and I couldn't figure out the french website since I don't speak french. I'll also search the forum site for alfe nide and see what that says.

Any words of wisdom on what you found out about the goat and alfe nide? is this good silverplate or just so so?

Thank you in advance.

posted 10-26-2006 06:52 PM            

Sorry to respond so late (this is maryr - I had to re-register!). I have not yet found out too much but I did have a local expert look at the server and she thought that it was made after 1877 based on the style of the piece. So, mine was made in the latter part of the 19th century and the maker's mark is that used by Halphen's widow (for how long I don't know).

Because the handle on my server is sterling, the maker's mark is in a diamond-shaped stamp, had it all been silverplate, it would have been in a square or rectangular stamp (hence, I assumed that the rectangle with the term alphe nide refers only to composition but I am not sure - if it were all silverplate I think the maker's mark would be in a square or rectangle also).

Your piece, however, is a bit of a mystery to me. Perhaps there are more markings? In another forum (do a search of "alphe nide" for all forums) that you may have seen that there is discussion that Christofle used a goat for its mark but I believe that would have been accompanied by some other markings. In any event, I did not find any other mark on the french site using a billy goat (I could not even find one for Christofle!).

For comparison, go to the french site, click on consultation and, leaving all else blank, type in "Halphen" in the Patronyme field, here you can see the mark registered by Halphen's widow in 1877 (for the details of the registration you need to click on the little page icon). If it is the same, then it would indicate that your piece was made by this same company. If it is not the same, could it be the mysterious Christofle male goat maker's mark alluded to in other forums? Or, even another company?

This would be worthy of your asking a question to see if anyone else is familiar with the goat and alfenide marks on your piece (a picture would be best). In the interim, if I find out anything else, I'll let you know.

Finally, I am not an expert by any means but I would not deem your piece "so so" because, after all, how can anything so intriguing be just so so!!??

Good Luck!