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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 Continental / International Silver
 my grandmother's demitasse set
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| Author | Topic: my grandmother's demitasse set |
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joyechizek Posts: 21 |
posted 08-23-2014 05:35 PM
  
[26-2475] Sorry, I am new at this. I'll try posting photos of my grandmother's demitasse set that has been passed down to me again. Has anyone seen this secession or Art Nouveau style as primitive as this? Thank you. Joye
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 08-24-2014 11:32 PM
What a beautiful coffee set, Joye! How wonderful to have something so exquisite from your family! This is not primitive work, but a very skillfully designed set in the Aesthetic style, inspired by Japanese design with reference to European naturalistic design movements such as Rococo. It's playing with the idea of primitiveness, but it is really the height of sophistication. I can't tell you how much I love your coffee set! I hope you and your family treasure it for many generations. IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 08-24-2014 11:40 PM
PS: If you could post a clearer photo of the sugar tongs, you would give me great pleasure. I have a thing for sugar tongs, and I bet that's an interesting pair. IP: Logged |
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asheland Posts: 935 |
posted 08-25-2014 09:51 AM
Indeed a very nice set! IP: Logged |
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joyechizek Posts: 21 |
posted 08-25-2014 09:54 AM
Thank you both. Indeed I will try to polish and photograph the marks better. I am not a professional, so my photos of the items are not good. Thank you for the explanation Polly. Joye IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 08-25-2014 11:05 AM
In addition to Polly's good information, this particular style of Aesthetic design is also commonly referred to as 'Naturalistic' rather than Nouveau or Secession. It was being made by a number of US and European companies in the late 1800s and I feel that they were borrowing from a Japanese style at the time that included such representations of nature but also included different color metals and sometimes even bugs in addition to leaves, vines, seashells and the like. Some nice examples of this style are ones seen from makers such as Redlich, Whiting and similar makers. For example, the Redlich Rusticana pattern is a nice example. Here is a link to at least one thread on Naturalistic silver on this forum to get you started: Silver Forum Thread on Naturalistic style silver (The Shiebler - Redlich Connection) IP: Logged |
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joyechizek Posts: 21 |
posted 08-25-2014 11:51 AM
Thank you, Kimo! I've goggled everything I could think of to find something like this style and came up empty...thank you so much for providing the right words and beautiful examples! I am so happy to see something that resembles my grandmother's set. I will work to clean it and take better photos. Thank you all so much for this forum! Joye IP: Logged |
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joyechizek Posts: 21 |
posted 08-25-2014 07:29 PM
 Polly, here's a photo of the tongs. In the late 1880s what did they use tongs for? no sugar cubes...something else? The set has a bowl and tongs but no creamer...coffee, tea, or chocolate? Thank you, Joye IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 08-25-2014 09:24 PM
Please be careful when you clean it. If you do a bit of searching here you will see many bits of good advice on how to clean silver properly. One good one to start with is do not dip it into a liquid cleaner - that would not only take away all of the dark tarnish from the crevices and crannies that is so essential to its patina, but that liquid typically also contains a chemical called thiourea which can cause cancer. Also, do not get overly enthusiastic when polishing since over time you can wear away the detailing in the silver. And, since your silver has so many nooks and crannies, my suggestion is to try using a jeweler's polishing cloth rather than paste cleaner. Paste can get stuck in those crevices and turn white and be difficult to get out. A jeweler's polishing cloth usually is two cloths sewn together with one side being impregnated with a silver cleaning agent to remove the tarnish, and the other being just soft flannel to polish things up afterwards. IP: Logged |
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agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 08-26-2014 07:55 AM
Your service will have been used for Turkish coffee – strong black coffee served in small cups. People often sweeten it to counteract the strong, bitter taste but milk is never added. The tongs would therefore indeed have been used for sugar. Before the invention of regularly shaped sugar cubes, sugar was sold in cone-shaped sugar loaves which had to be broken up into smaller chunks for the sugar bowl. The history of sugar tongs is nearly as long as the history of tea drinking in the West, going back to the 17th century. Turkish style coffee remains popular across most of the area of the former Ottoman Empire and parts of the former Austro-Hungarian Empire. I wish I could help with the maker's mark. It won't have been some insignificant, backwoods workshop so sooner or later somebody ought to recognise it. [This message has been edited by agphile (edited 08-26-2014).] IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 08-26-2014 09:20 AM
See these threads for more Sugar Cone info: IP: Logged |
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joyechizek Posts: 21 |
posted 08-26-2014 10:14 AM
Ah, the makes sense. Where did the sugar come from in the 1880s? I don't seem to have a good camera to photograph the marks but the pot, tongs, sugar and tray have pentagon-shaped Diana head with a dog's head on the crest. I believe these were only used in Austro-Hungary from 1867-1872. I’ve been told that the BF in a punched oval signifies Frank Brüder from Vienna. As to clean it, this was smuggled into the US by my grandmother, aunt and her nephew, rolled in their dirty laundry in 1947, when they took the Queen Mary steerage to go back to Hungary. My grandmother said it was her inheritance. She died when I was nine and my Aunt Mary has pictures of using it when it was clean. She died last December a month before her 93rd birthday. Since her husband died in 1980, she put these in a moldy basement closet in MN. It was black. I soaked it in water with baking soda and a bit of dish washing soap to which I added some lemon juice but that budged only surface pieces. I looked for the lowest abrasion polish but found out for myself, I made a mess with all the wires and soon found out how difficult is was to get the dried goo out of the cervices. A stenciling brush seems to work, but I’ll fine a polishing cloth. Thank you both! Joye IP: Logged |
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Kayvee Posts: 204 |
posted 08-26-2014 02:07 PM
The most likely source of sugar at that time in Europe was sugar beet production, Germany being the largest producer followed by France. Cane sugar also would have been available, imported from the Caribbean region. Best wishes for cleaning your interesting coffee service. The job is going to take a lot of patience, but the result will be worth it in the end. IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 08-26-2014 02:17 PM
Thanks for your posting of your great coffee service. Do your cups have any marks on the bottom. These would have been made by different hands than the silver and they are beautiful also. Lots of patience is required to polish - also I have used an old toothbrush on occasion to get into the cracks and crevices. Take your time in doing it as it will be well worth the effort. IP: Logged |
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joyechizek Posts: 21 |
posted 08-26-2014 09:59 PM
     Here's new photos of the cup/saucer combined piece. There are no marks on the bottom, just the clover Diane's head and BF in oval punch on either side of the handle. The cup/saucers are made of 80% rather than 90% as are the others/ Each came with a small but heavy spoon and eggshell porcelain inserts with gold bands on their exteriors and a black and gold floral pattern inside. These all seem to have a gold wash inside and on the bottoms, especially insider the pot and sugar. I'm thrilled to have found this information on this forum, I will clean it with great care. Thank you, IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 08-27-2014 12:45 AM
Thank you for posting the additional photos, Joye. What a treat to see that wonderful set. It's a treasure. IP: Logged |
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joyechizek Posts: 21 |
posted 08-27-2014 05:08 PM
        I read the instructions for my camera and got closer shots of the marks. I don't have a tripod. The pot, sugar and tongs have Diana's head in a pentagon with an A. The 6 cup holder/saucers have a Diana's head in a clover shape also with an A and something else on the left side I can't read. All have an oval punch with BF. I hope this helps. Thank you, Joye IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 08-27-2014 05:50 PM
this post might be of interest: IP: Logged |
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agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 08-27-2014 06:39 PM
Austrian or Austro-Hungarian marks are not my area but I think your earlier suggestion of Bruder Frank (Frank Brothers) in Vienna may well be right for the BF marks. I’ve found a note in German on the internet that says the brothers founded the firm in 1887 and that it continued until 1930. The firm seems to have had a reputation for good quality work and good design. However, if this is right, the set, and the other marks, cannot be earlier than 1887. However, I would doubt whether the set is very much later than that date either. Incidentally, my apologies for the lack of an umlaut over the u in Bruder. I can’t find out where on my new computer to locate one! [This message has been edited by agphile (edited 08-27-2014).] IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 08-27-2014 08:12 PM
Hi Agphile. There is a little trick that you can use on your computer to generate all kinds of unusual letters and symbols. Try this: hold down your Alt key, it should be somewhere around the bottom left of your keyboard. While holding it down with one hand, use your other hand to type in a one to three digit number and then after typing in the number lift your finger up off of the Alt key. Then Bob's your uncle the special character appears. For a u with the umlaut you hold down the Alt key and while holding it down type in the number 129 and you get ü. There are webpages that show all of these "Alt Codes" that are easy to find if you are interested. ☺ ☻ ♥ [This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 08-27-2014).] IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 08-27-2014 11:47 PM
For more Alt codes see: IP: Logged |
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joyechizek Posts: 21 |
posted 08-28-2014 01:09 AM
Agphille, I cut and pasted the name to get the characters right. I've been looking at Bruder Frank in auction and found a couple that date to 1872 like this one, "Viennese Jardiniere, silver, oval, elaborate floral relief, rocailles, 2 handles, 4 feet, colourless glass inset, 51 x 21 cm, silver weight 1144 g, minimal dents, handle sl. loose, min. notched, company mark: Brüder Frank (Neuwirth 2384), Viennese Diana hallmark 1872–1922". Looking at the Austro-Hungarian marks for that time frame they are greatly similar to the 1867-1872 marks, so I believe I'm in the ball park. My grandmother was born in 1880 and was first married in 1904...but the initials match no one in our family tree except the H for her first husband's name Harkas. He was born in 1868 so perhaps had a first wife for whom this was a drowsy piece. My grandmother could have hide it somewhere and then gone back for it right after WWII...? Joye IP: Logged |
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joyechizek Posts: 21 |
posted 08-28-2014 03:41 AM
Any tips on how to deal with gold wash on inside and bottoms of these items? I didn't try to polish them but did soak in water with a bit of dish soap. Joye IP: Logged |
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agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 08-28-2014 08:53 AM
Joye May I just come back on the dating of the set? According to all my references the assay office letter (in this case A for Vienna) was only added to the Diana mark from 1872 onwards, until 1921. The marks therefore cover this date range and are consistent with the date of 1887 for the founding of the Frank brothers’ Vienna Gold and Silver Workshop which comes from the Frank family website (Frankfamilie.com), more specifically from a summary of a talk given to a family reunion, so I feel reasonably confident about it. A date anywhere between 1887 and the early 1900s would be fit in with the style of the set and more easily tie it in with your grandmother’s first husband if the initials prove to match. [This message has been edited by agphile (edited 08-28-2014).] IP: Logged |
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joyechizek Posts: 21 |
posted 08-28-2014 10:16 AM
Thank you, Agphile. While the pages are in German, I believe you are correct. BTW, I didn't mean drowsy, but instead drowry piece Bride's family to Grooms family. Thank you, Joye IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 08-28-2014 11:09 AM
quote: You may fix the typo. Click on the edit post icon IP: Logged |
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joyechizek Posts: 21 |
posted 08-28-2014 09:07 PM
Thank you, Brian. IP: Logged |
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joyechizek Posts: 21 |
posted 08-28-2014 09:40 PM
 Brüder Frank is not a person. Brüder translates from German to English as brothers, brethren, kin, relatives, male siblings. so it is the name of the company founded in Vienna 1887 by the brothers Eduard, Anton and Rudolf Frank. IP: Logged |
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joyechizek Posts: 21 |
posted 09-20-2014 09:03 PM
You all were so helpful to me that I wanted to post a photo of this set after hours with a polishing cloth and toothpicks. Thanks to everyone who gave me information on this set and helpful hints toward cleaning it. Joye [This message has been edited by joyechizek (edited 09-20-2014).] IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 09-20-2014 11:05 PM
Great polishing job! That set is really wonderful. Thank you again for showing it to us. IP: Logged |
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