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tline3open  Confusing partial English hallmarks

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Author Topic:   Confusing partial English hallmarks
Brent

Posts: 1507
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 08-29-2000 10:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

It is not unusual for me to come across an English spoon, like this one, with partial hallmarks. In most cases, including this one, it is the town mark that is usually missing. This poses a conundrum, as I am never sure which assay office to examine to determine the actual date. Furthermore, the shape of the date letter "surround" almost never exactly matches any illustrated in Jackson.

Case in point: This rather ugly little teaspoon is in the Hanoverian style, which seems to point to a date in the mid-18th century. We have a lowercase h date letter, the lion passant, and a badly distorted maker's stamp of TL. In the London date cycles, the lowercase h appears twice in the 18th century, 1743-44 and 1783-84. The shape of this particular stamp is closer to the 1783 than 1743, but the style of the spoon is more 1743. The style of the lion passant doesn't look like either date.

My questions are these:

1.) Given a piece of flatware with no town mark but a date letter, is it reasonable to assume a London origin, or should I be looking at the other assay offices, which pose several other possibilities for a lowercase h. In this case, all of the suitable TL maker's marks seem to be from London.

2.) On flatware at least, it seems that the shape of the date letter stamp is often very different from the accepted norm, as illustrated in Jackson. Is this just a distortion associated with the making of the piece, or did the actual shape of the stamp vary somewhat? Were more than one stamp used by each assay office? I notice that Jackson illustrates some variation of date letters for certain cycles; was this common?

Any information would be welcome.

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swarter
Moderator

Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 10-26-2003 01:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Brent - This little spoon is "top masrked," indicating the later date. A small spoon marked with the earlier date would have been "bottom marked," with only the standard (lion passant) and maker's mark impressed on the stem above the bowl.

Punches used on smaller objects often vary somewhat in form from the larger ones usually depicted in the tables.

Also, the spoon is a late hanoverian, as indicated by the lack of a long ridge on the handle.

You are probably correct in assuming it is London made. The maker's mark appears to be distorted, perhaps by further finishing after being marked -- it might also be conceivable that the end of the handle might have been reshaped from the more contemporary downturned Old English form. While the first letter looks like an L, it can be read (at least in the photograph) an imperfect E. If that is the case, the maker may be the London spoonmaker Thomas Evans.

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Brent

Posts: 1507
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 10-27-2003 09:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, this was an interesting piece. I have since sold it, but it still intrigues me. I did actually conclude that the spoon must have been converted from an "Old English" style spoon, as you propose. It really wasn't shaped right for a Hanoverian spoon. I'm guessing that someone wanted a spoon in the older style, and the maker simply made an Old English style spoon upside down.

This reminds me of a piece I saw a few years ago. I did a post about it in the Silver Stories forum, I think, but it bears repeating. The piece was a coin silver tablespoon by Adrian Bancker; obviously a very desirable early New York piece. What was odd, though, was that it was in the Old English style, with a very flat front, period block initials ot the front, and a very long midrib on the back. Close examination revealed that the spoon had once been a typical Hanoverian style. At some point long ago the stem had been cut off just above the marks, the handle flipped over and reattached. I suppose it was done in the late 18th C, when Old English replaced the Hanoverian style, and the owner did not want to pay to have the spoon completely refashioned. A real curiosity!

Brent

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Buckleman1
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iconnumber posted 10-27-2003 05:21 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This spoon is not London of 1743/44 as the Lion Passant is not of that period . The one easy Lion Passant punch to identify is the London 1740 - 1756 one. It has two side indents which are totally unlike any other punches before or since. Usually refered to as the "Cottage loaf " lion , or "bobble bottomed" lion. An examination of any hallmark guide will make its form clear. This spoon has a punch with both sides unindented and if London could be 1720 -1740, or 1756 onwards. The bottom of this example is unclear so that the distinquishing mark, the bottom "nipple " of the later punch cannot be seen. The absence of cut corners to the top is not normal for London of the 1756 onwards period, and makes me suspect a provincial assay. Futher details on the forms of the Eighteenth century Lion Passant punches can be seen on posings under topic " Mystery Silver Tongs "

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Silver Lyon

Posts: 363
Registered: Oct 2004

iconnumber posted 10-23-2004 04:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Silver Lyon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A further note on a query from long ago!

The year that the date letters in London change from being struck 'bottom marked' (near the bowl) to being 'top marked' (near the end of the handle is 1781 with the small f mark.
Thus the only Georgian spoons without a Kings Head Duty Mark and with top marks usually encountered are those for
1781 f
1782 g
1783 h
The reason for the move was practical. To save time and money (plus la change, plus la meme chose) the Assay Office introduced a Stub, which meant that more than one mark could be struck with one strike (The f and lion on this spoon, for example). If you do this at the bottom you weaken or crack the stem of the spoon.. result disaster!! - so the marks had to move place.
You get both sorts in 1781.

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