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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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 British / Irish Sterling
 Coffin End Old English???
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| Author | Topic: Coffin End Old English??? |
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nihontochicken Posts: 289 |
posted 05-28-2003 11:59 AM
  
Here's a photo of a group of four spoons that are British Old English with coffin ends. Question - did in fact some British makers make coffin end flatware for the American market in the approx. 1800-1810 time frame? Q #2 - is it proper to assume that most such spoons seen today are fakes? It seems to me that even a lot of of American coffin end spoons are fakes. TIA for all responses! Rick IP: Logged |
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FredZ Posts: 1070 |
posted 05-28-2003 10:00 PM
Perhaps you could show us better pictures of the coffin ends. They are not evident in your image. I would find it interesting to discover if the English did make spoons in this style for American trade. Fred Zweig IP: Logged |
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nihontochicken Posts: 289 |
posted 05-29-2003 12:33 AM
Okay, Fred, here's another pic. (Note: I'm snagging the pics off a sales site, so am limited to the quality that's there. I posted the other pic in order to show the Brit hallmarks to confirm that these are indeed Brit spoons.) So, are the finials original or not? So easy to fake. I suppose one would need to have them in hand and compare the patina of the clipped edges to the rest of the spoon. So we won't know for sure in this case. But what about the general case? Are "coffin end" Brit spoons sometimes, often, or usually fakes? Rick IP: Logged |
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nihontochicken Posts: 289 |
posted 05-29-2003 12:36 PM
A thought that should have occurred to me earlier, since these spoons sport an engraved crest, they were likely made for the domestic British marjet and not for the Colonies. So that would argue for a non-contemporary origin of the coffin ends. Yes or no, I'm still interested in the general question, are some, many or most such coffin end Brit spoons fakes? Rick IP: Logged |
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Brent Posts: 1507 |
posted 05-29-2003 02:25 PM
English coffin-ends are rare, but not unheard of. I have seen a few genuine examples; they generally do look like yours, with the clipped corners very high on the handle. Personally, I would expect to see more made-up coffin-ends in American coin silver, since coin silver collectors seem to like it so much. Anyway, unless I saw one seller with a whole bunch of English coffin-ends by different makers, I wouldn't automatically be suspicious. Wary, but not suspicious. Brent IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 05-29-2003 02:45 PM
 Here are more English coffin handles. You cannot assume them to be faked for sale to the American market unless the hallmarks have been removed. There does not seem to be any other reason to convert a round-end spoon to a coffin handle except to match a set. I have seen American fiddles converted to coffin, coffin-fiddle, and round end spoons, but the coffin and round-end fakes are easy to detect because the handles are uniformly flat rather than tapered in thickness. I once ran into a group of Sayre spoons converted in this manner - I was suspicious because of the thickness and oddly tapered stems, and on examination under magnification file marks which had not been completely removed could be detected. caveat emptor! IP: Logged |
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nihontochicken Posts: 289 |
posted 05-30-2003 01:34 AM
Thanks, Brent and swarter, I yield to superior knowledge and experience, but, I must admit, as far as this niche of collecting, I'll have to be positively convinced as to authenticity on an as-case basis. Clipped coffin ends are just too easy to fake. There is little incentive to do so for American Old English pattern, but perhaps little more for British Old English pattern, a fair amount of incentive for American shoulderless fiddle pattern, and a whole bunch of incentive for shouldered American fiddle pattern. The bywords are "15x loupe" and "show me the patina"!!! Rick [This message has been edited by nihontochicken (edited 05-31-2003).] IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 05-30-2003 06:30 AM
Keep in mind that crests were used by American families as well, as George Washington for one. IP: Logged |
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