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ID Hanoverian Spoon Hallmarks?

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Author	Topic: ID Hanoverian Spoon Hallmarks?
rick@slocoast.net unregistered	posted 05-14-2003 03:59 PM Hi! Just recently discovered this website, and hope I'm not using up too much bandwidth to start with (have another question on the coin silver group). In a two spoon deal, I acquired a nice Mary Matthew serving spoon dated 1711, which was the one I was really interested in. Now I'm trying to figure out the other one, which is putting up quite a fight. It is very similar Hanoverian, about half an inch shorter at 7 1/2", also with rat tail drop. The hallmarks are as below: The spoon bowl is to the right in this pic. So what should be the maker's mark seems instead to be a single letter date mark, either a "P" or a "d", depending on orientation. In any case, there is no serif on the free end of the upright, making it strange for either a maker or a date mark. To the immediate left of the "P" (or "d", or whatever), there is a mostly rubbed mark which on close examination appears to possible be a leopard town mark. To the immediate left of this is apparently a very rubbed lion passant mark, but looking upside down from a "P" and from the mark to its immediate left. On the far left, where one might expect a date mark, is an apparent maker's mark, showing clearly only an "e" on its right hand side. The bottom border of the punch appears to go straight and far to the left of the "e", perhaps indicating three letters width. There were very few registered marks of this era (approx. 1700-1750) using any lower case letters, and these tend to be earlier in the period when using the first two letters of the family name was the style. I can't find marks any that fit well. Either the punch has a non-straight side or bottom (as Thos. Jenkins, 1697 and Robt. Keble, 1702, and Jonthn. Newton,1711), and/or the "e" is in Old English or script (as Ralph Leeke, 1697 and Thos. Peele and Jno. Reed, 1704), or the letter next to the "e" does not have a left-to-right upslope as apparent in this example (as Ed. Jennings, 1709, and Thos. Bevault, 1712). Note: not all "e" candidates listed. The closest seem to be Bevault ("Be" in plain square punch), Danl. Yerbury ("Ye" in a shield punch) and Anthony Nelme (conjoined "AN" plus "e" in a fancy edged punch). None is a slam dunk. I have looked for these letter marks, both as dates and as maker's marks, for all British makers in all areas for all dates, including the Edwardian revival period, without success. I'm still waiting for the "A-ha!" experience where it all snaps into focus. Can anyone help me get some sleep? Thank you in advance very much for any help/suggestions you can provide! Rick IP: Logged
Brent Posts: 1507 Registered: May 99	posted 05-16-2003 02:23 PM Assuming that you have examined the spoon closely and are convinced of the age and authenticity, I would lean towards a provincial origin, perhaps Chester. The Chester hallmarks tend to be crude, like the ones on your mystery spoon. The Chester leopard's head is similar to the London. It looks like part of the p/d is cut off, which would explain the absence of any serif. Chester has a possible d in 1754-55, or p 1765-66. As to who, there aren't many Chester registered silversmiths with marks like yours. That said, silversmiths from many other places, including Liverpool, did use the Chester office. I'm afraid I don't have anyone handy to throw out as a possibility, but I do think it would be worth investigating smiths who did not live in Chester but who may have had items assayed there. I hope this helps! Brent IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-16-2003 07:34 PM Are you certain this is Sterling and not Britannia standard silver? The maker's mark with the lower case second letter sounds like a New Standard mark, which would be consistent with a true rettail, if that is what you have. If that is the case, there cannot be a lion passant mark, and it should be dated before 1720. The marks would then read (and they look to me like they actually might) going right from the maker's mark (should actually be viewed with the bowl held upward): seated Britannia figure (facing right when upright), lions head erased (also facing right), an obliterated mark(?)(town mark?), and the date letter. Both Chester and Exeter used a Roman P in 1715/16, and there is a Peter Pemberton in Chester with a "Pe" New Standatd mark during this period (shown in the revised Jackson's Marks). Try breathing on the marks (like you would moisten eyeglass lenses for cleaning) to bring them out briefly as the film of condensed moisture fades, and/or viewing them in oblique light to accentuate any shadow detail - this sometimes helps clarify worn marks that are not completely gone. If this actually is an early provincial spoon, you may have gotten a "sleeper." If you figure it out, post your conclusions here. IP: Logged
rick@slocoast.net unregistered	posted 05-16-2003 09:13 PM Thank you, Brent and swarter! As far as the marks, I can't see much more with the spoon in my hand than you can see on the website pic. The marks in the middle are very much gone, and could well include the Brittania Standard and lion's head erased as you suggest, and not lion passant and leopard's head as I guessed. Unfortunately, I lack the expertise to tell Brittania Standard from sterling by looking at the metal hue/patina. I like the attribution of the "e" mark to Peter Pemberton, as his mark had a straight edged side and bottom, and the "P" in his "Pe" mark shows a general left to right upslope in its right hand side as does the mostly rubbed letter in my mark in front of the "e". But my reference shows that Pemberton used a script "e", not a printed "e" with a straight horizontal section on the bottom of the closed loop and "square" corner on the right, so there is still room for uncertainty. And the 1715 Chester "P" date mark in my text (Wyler)shows a serif at the the base of the letter, as does the 1765 "P" (and the 1754 "d" shows a serif at its top). Alas, I don't have knowledge of the general "crudeness" of Chester marks to properly assess the mark in this regard. Thank you again, Brent and swarter, for your well considered evaluations. Any other opinions are still welcome!!! Rick IP: Logged
melissa unregistered	posted 05-17-2003 09:25 AM Hello, regarding the maker's mark, Thomas Pye seems a possibility. The mark was registered in London 1739, page 192 of Jackson's. IP: Logged
rick@slocoast.net unregistered	posted 05-17-2003 01:47 PM Thanks, Melissa, for pointing this out. I missed Pye in my search. His mark is three letters long, fairly atypical, as my mark appears to be, and the "y" in front of the "e" is a very good fit for what remains in my maker's mark. And I note that the earlier 1739 London date mark used a straight sided shield and a "d", though in this case, it would have to have been struck upside down with respect to the maker's mark, and that darn serif is still missing. And 1739 seems to be somewhat late for a sharp, full length rattail drop. Still, all considered, a leading contender, thanks again for identifying this possibility! Rick IP: Logged

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