Georgian sugar tongs- help with date needed!

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Georgian sugar tongs- help with date needed!

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Author	Topic: Georgian sugar tongs- help with date needed!
suefromoz unregistered	posted 05-18-2002 01:12 AM I have just purchased a pair of sterling silver sugar tongs. They have a lovely clear hallmark, showing the head of George IV, the lion and the letter q (lower case). On the opposite side is a rather worn makers marks. My challenge is that there is no town mark! I have trawled through my books and been through the silver mine site and suspect the date is 1814 Birmingham. IS this correct please? Here is the pic, I hope! : IP: Logged
Brent Posts: 1507 Registered: May 99	posted 05-18-2002 09:04 AM Hi Sue, The absence of a town mark on an otherwise fully-marked small piece of silver usually indicates a London origin. If you ask me, the likely date is 1831-32, and the monarch is indeed George IV, even though William IV was on the throne. It seems they didn't introduce a likeness of William until 1834-35. The style is certainly more indicative of an earlier date, but English styles tend to hang on long after their peak of popularity. I hope this helps! Brent IP: Logged
suefromoz unregistered	posted 05-18-2002 08:05 PM Thank you Brent I also had that date as my second choice - flicked simply because of the dates for the Monarchs! It was most instructive to find that London is the most likely place for otherwise fully hallmarked pieces as it means I can accurately date my other set of tongs now. Well, hopefully! And thank you for guiding me to this excellent site - I have read many of the other posts with enormous interest Best wishes Sue IP: Logged
akgdc Posts: 289 Registered: Sep 2001	posted 05-21-2002 09:55 AM Sorry to disagree, but the actual date of these tongs is 1791. The monarch is clearly George III; you can tell because his hair is in a queue and the cartouche is a perfect oval. And this style of tongs, especially with the brightcut decoration, would not be found after c. 1800. Brent is right that the lack of a town mark almost certainly means London. I have a 1791 London tablespoon with the same hallmarks (plus town mark of crowned leopard, and a different maker's mark) and similar brightcut decoration. IP: Logged
yesterdays Posts: 8 Registered: May 2002	posted 05-21-2002 12:29 PM May I please offer my humble first public reply.I feel that your makers mark could be that of a London Goldsmith,CRESPIN FULLER 1810-1811, as shown in the Book of Old Silver, page 168.Technically this would make your silver tongs High Regency and King George The Third.Try as I may I could not make these out for Charles Fox,but even so you have an impressive find there. As for London silver without the city mark,I have it from an english expert on the subject that non-resident makers were never granted the London city mark as it greatly increased the value and prestige of the makers silver.I hope my opinion helps you. ------------------ Chuck IP: Logged
Brent Posts: 1507 Registered: May 99	posted 05-21-2002 12:42 PM On second thought, I think you are right, akgdc. The monarch didn't initially look like George III to me because you usually see it worn flat like a silhouette. This mark is in much better shape than average. The pigtail is the giveaway, though, as you say, and I should have noted that. You are also right that this style would be unusual to find as late as the 1830's, and a 1791 date makes a lot more sense. A couple of caveats, though: 1.) Bright cut decoration did hang around a bit after 1800. I know P, A, and W Bateman continued making bright-cut spoons at least until 1810 and quite probably later. 2.) Mark shapes can be very misleading. I have found considerable variation in the shapes of hallmark surrounds, and they often deviate significantly from what is pictured in the hallmark books. Thanks for the correction! Brent IP: Logged
akgdc Posts: 289 Registered: Sep 2001	posted 05-21-2002 03:35 PM Interesting, Brent ... I didn't know the Batemans were making brightcut work so late. Maybe it's because that's something the family firm was known for -- customers who wanted replacement pieces later on, or who simply still liked the now-unfashionable early style, kept coming to them for it. IP: Logged
suefromoz unregistered	posted 05-24-2002 06:46 AM Oh wow! I did not expect any further discussion on this and had not looked back for a few days. I am overjoyed to find that they are as old as that and now they are residing here for good! Thank you all so much!! And Brent, I am sorry to be the cause of your first public apology - grin IP: Logged
suefromoz unregistered	posted 05-24-2002 06:48 AM Oh darn Got too excited! Sorry Brent - ingratiating grin.... IP: Logged

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