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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 British / Irish Sterling
 Rare vs Common...???
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| Author | Topic: Rare vs Common...??? |
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t-man-nc Posts: 327 |
posted 10-19-2003 10:02 AM
  
I have several pieces of what I refer to as "UK / English" pieces, including several Scottish and Irish "Rattail" spoons of some antiquity, that I acquired in some of the lots I have purchased containing Coin Silver, which is more my interest... As we all know there are a number of different "City" marks in “UK / English” silver. Is there any reference as to the order of precedence pertaining to the rarity of specific City marks... Like there is in Coin Silver from some of the southern states (GA, SC, NC, ALA, etc.)? I for one, spend the most of my time researching and reading about American silversmiths, and have to carry English reference books with me when scouring the antique store, as there are a number of occasions when I find a nice piece that while not coin, is appealing but the price may be high for what I can only judge as PPDK... Pretty Piece - Don't Know... and then pass it by as overpriced, when in fact it may be under priced for the rarity and a very real bargain. I must watch what I spend on my silver purchases, as I seem to find more and more I want and less and less I can afford. In any case, these need to be snapped up before it gets into the hand of the silver smelters (yes, they are alive and have gone into high gear since the price of silver went up), whether they stay in my personal collection or are passed on to others to be held onto for posterity... The rarer pieces tend to be rare not only because of low production, (in my opinion) but lost due to primarily ignorance (can you say the “Great Melt” some 20 –25 years ago). While this site does not deal with the value of any particular piece of silver, we are all acutely aware that this love of the craft and awe of the talent that made these pieces is in fact, an expensive endeavor. Please understand I am not attempting to put a price on any specific piece of silver or even a type, category or any other stratification, simply trying to gain some walking around knowledge... as it were... Thanks “Smaug” IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 10-19-2003 11:21 PM
You have asked an interesting question, t-man. Like you, I have been primarily interested in American silver, but througout my years of exploring the subject I have always paid attention to its origins, realizing that both the earlier styles and most of the silversmiths who made the objects were ultimately traceable to Britain and Ireland. You can get a rough, but adequate, idea of relative abundance of products marked by the various assay offices simply by examining the tables in a copy of Jackson, which I assume you have. These tables will show the years of operation of each office, the names and numbers of silversmiths registered at each, and some idea, from the entries of items found, of frequency with which objects have turned up. One can expect that the longer the period of operation and the greater the number of working smiths, the less rare that items from an office would be. These data reflect, of course, the information available to Jackson in England. In the US, the picture would be somewhaat different, in that what can be found here is a reflection of the sources from whence the objects came. These sources would be three -- original importation by retailers of objects for sale from London, family possessions brought by immigrants, and (later) imports of antiques for sale by dealers. There would therefore be an even greater abundance of London silver here, given the original importation, and the later bias of many antique dealers who believe(d) that anything made outside of London was, by definition, inferior. It follows, then that silver originating in London should be the most frequently encountered, that from the remaining larger offices (Edinborough, Dublin, Birmingham, and Sheffield) should be next, followed by the lesser offices and provincial centers, last. There is probably nothing to be gained from trying to go beyond these generalities. Excepting that relatively abundant small specialty objects from Birmingham (where a niche for their production seems to have developed) can be found generally, the frequency of encounters with other items from outside London would be expected to reflect settlement patterns of immigrants. However, with the increasing mobility of the Ameicann population, these and other historical patterns have begun to blur, so that rare items can (and do) turn up anywhere. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 10-19-2003).] IP: Logged |
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doc Posts: 730 |
posted 10-20-2003 01:00 PM
An interesting question indeed, and one that I will be interested in seeing others' responses to. My interest is primarily in Irish silver, and in that case, silver from cities other than Dublin can have greater value, if old enough, due to its relative scarcity. IP: Logged |
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Buckleman1 unregistered |
posted 10-25-2003 08:27 AM
Concerning the relative value of the various English, Irish and Scottish assay offices, this has seen a very marked change in the last fifty years. London silver was the most sought after by collectors prior to 1945, since, by and large, the quality of London items was higher than provincial. Provincial silver, because of lower price and often lower quality was thus far more likely to be scrapped. As a result the once despised provincial silver, often rarer in manufacturing output anyhow , had become scare. Since then, and especially in the last twenty years collecting has concentrated more on the academic side, and on rarity, with utility ( and in many cases quality) taking a lower precedence. Increasing affluence, especially in Ireland and the Channel Islands , made the "local" buyers stronger and more interested in their heritage Consequently for similar items , in similar condition , of similar quality prices now have a totalty different pattern. In very rough order silver from 1700 is ranked commercially as follows (NB Many people would dispute these rankings - including my wife !) Top of the list High Up Meduim Standard Lower IP: Logged |
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t-man-nc Posts: 327 |
posted 10-29-2003 11:33 PM
This is very interesting... I have a lot to try to incorperate into my mental notebook while looking at the different pieces I encounter... I have seen most of the pieces identified by Buckleman except for Channel Islands... How would one reconigise Jersey or any channel Island pieces... I have a small bowl i have just purchased thinking it to be a coin sugar bowl with a very tight fitting lid, to keep out insects, and when a dealer who spend much of her time in Europe saw it she seems to think it a Channel Islands pieces of Church Silver... where the bowl is more of a footed two handed cup without the handles the foot is weel welded to the body and the base contains an EB contained in Rectangle, and marked twice very nicely on the bottom of of the bowl. the Lid when removed is very schallow and when turned on it top the lid becomes a small dish. The lid id also marked with the two ED in Rectangle. These are the only marks on the piece. The lady is a well educated collage professor in Chicago and the silver she says she has seen is only five peices from the Channel Islands and whould bet her salery that it is... So I have without trying, stured up a challange.... I will ask Lisa to get some pictures of all the angles on this thing and see how it goes...
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t-man-nc Posts: 327 |
posted 10-31-2003 08:08 AM
here are the pictures... Hope this works IP: Logged |
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Buckleman1 unregistered |
posted 10-31-2003 02:37 PM
Very nice piece of silver. It could (and outside buckles I'm ignorant!) indeed be a piece of church plate - a paten and cover for the Host. Channel Island silver is very hard to identify unless you have a book of makers marks and POSITIVELY match one. The other clue is that ownership initials are usually three letters in a straight line, separated by three dots in triangle formation ( like "therefore" in a logic proof). The Letters are for syllables. ie Tomkinson could be "T K S" and not actual initial letters . Actually its more complex than that and no-one has ever convinced me that we now actually understand it ! Do not confuse three initial in a triangle formation as this though. In English silver IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 10-31-2003 04:41 PM
Can you provide a close up photo(s) of the mark(s)? This would be necessary for comaprison with published marks. You mention both EB and ED - are there actually two different marks or is one a typo in your message? There was an otherwise unidentified maker on Jersey who used an E•D mark, but there is none with an EB in Richard Mayne's book. IP: Logged |
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t-man-nc Posts: 327 |
posted 11-01-2003 08:45 AM
The two marks are both EB in a rectangle... the ones on the top are both facing the same way while the ones on the bottom are reversed or 180 degrees... I will see if I can get Lisa to photo them as my photos are too blurred... Swarter... What is your opinion as to the use of this piece, and its possible origin... It is pretty and I don't know if the size is apparent from the pictures but it is small ... 4 inches across the top of the bowl, 2 and 1/2 across the bottom / foot, and the top with its foot, is about 1 inch... the top clamps tight on the bowl so that it is hard to get off and the inside is absolutely hand hammered like 18th century silver I have held and the weld of the foot is similar to early to mid 18th century... Any guess... If in fact the piece is not coin as I now believe, then I need to let it go as it ties up too much of my budget on a PPDK "Pretty Piece - Don't Know", But my curiosity is killing me... Thanks “Smaug” IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 11-03-2003 12:00 PM
Covered sugar bowls of this form were made in the 18th Century in Britain and America (and possibly on the Continent). There are published photographs of both bombe' and pyriform shapes, with several surviving American Colonial examples of the latter form. When inverted the lid served as a dish. One suggestion (Ian Pickford) is that the dish served to hold spoons when in use on the table. Given the cost of silver items at the time, being able to use a cover for an additional purpose, whatever that might have been, would have saved the expense of purchasing another piece. I am unable to determine from a photograph when or where this one might have been made - it coule even have been made it the earlier form by a later craftsman. Perhaps the nature of the lip of the lower bowl and the overlapping method of closure might provide a clue to someone knowlegeable about construction techniques. I could not tell you the silver content, either, except that it is most probably not electroplate - it could be either coin or stirling (or even Sheffield?). A close-up of the marks would be most useful -- if identifiable, a number of questions could be answered. If you are going to discard it, throw it in my direction! IP: Logged |
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t-man-nc Posts: 327 |
posted 11-16-2003 05:23 AM
I think I have solved the issue by shear happenstance... I purchased a book over the ebay and it arrived the other day while I was in Tucson, and I just got back and there is a Sugar Bowl in one of the pictures with an almost identical lid, and a somewhat elongated body with a higher foot. The marks on the piece are the same and the time period is the mid to late 1700's. The book is "A Treasury of Old Silver" I picked up for a few dollars, and the picture can be seen on page 69 showing pieces from the Museum of New York. the "EB" mark is that of Ephraim Brasher of New York. So it appears I will be keeping the bowl with the collection. While it is not Channel Islands, it is a good fit for my collection. As for discarding it... had it not been coin I would have made it available to our fellow silverphiles here to whom ever wanted to place it in their collection. Speaking of which, I was tempted to pick up a couple of what i refer to as cake baskets, thes were made in Londen, one in 1740 and the second in 1760, if I remember right they went for a couple of hundred a piece... i don't know if that is a reasonable price but both were lovely, and quite ornate fully marked, and generally very appealing... I most always learn about these the day of the auction, but if some one here wanted these types of thing I would pass them along at cost plus shipping and insurance... The mechanics may be a little difficult as it would be impossible to send pictures until after they were purchased, so this may not work, but wanted to make the offer anyway... Thanks for all the feedback and help it is very enjoyable to be able to spend time with those of common interests... "Smaug" IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 11-22-2003 01:28 PM
Additional Brasher posts have been deleted from this open thread, and a duplicate of the entire original thread placed in the American forum. The closed copy of the original thread in this forum will be removed after a time, but is being left for a while for people to see if they are looking here for the Brasher posts. No more Brasher posts should be placed here, but in the new thread in the American forum, where the original thread has been split, as it has gotten too long. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 12-05-2003).] IP: Logged |
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