Sugar tongs with only Lion Passant and Makers mark

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Sugar tongs with only Lion Passant and Makers mark

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Author	Topic: Sugar tongs with only Lion Passant and Makers mark
Dazman Posts: 8 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 02-02-2005 09:02 AM Got these as part of a lot of silver items at a local auction. No date letter or assay office and I can't find the makers mark, WP over WW, anywhere. Makes it rather difficult for me to identify! They are about six inches long and there is plenty of space to mark them. I know on small items they sometimes left stuff off but these are pretty big. Provincial?? Here are the pics: Thanks for any help given!!! Daz IP: Logged
nihontochicken Posts: 289 Registered: May 2003	posted 02-02-2005 12:12 PM Wm. Playfair & Wm. Wilson, mark registered 1782, London. IP: Logged
Silver Lyon Posts: 363 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 02-02-2005 12:23 PM William Playfair and William Wilson of London. They first register their mark in London in 1782 as 'spoonmakers' - they made lots of nice tongs!! With this big lion your tongs are going to be close to 1782 and probably before 1784 - strictly speaking tongs don't HAVE to have duty paid on them (dependant on weight) until 1791... This can lead to confusion. Those with oval duty marks, but without date letters are made between 1786 and 1791 - obviously those with the incuse duty mark are 1784-85 - Hope this helps! IP: Logged
Dazman Posts: 8 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 02-02-2005 12:31 PM Man you guys are great. I sure have a lot to learn and many books to buy!!! Thanx again for you help!! Daz IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 02-02-2005 02:39 PM Very interested in Silver Lyons comment that duty was not compulsory on tongs until 1791. Certainly some items were excempt from assay if on a notoriously confusing list , but if assayed then I thought ALL items were dutiable and the duty mark had to be applied. I've always treated all pre 1800 items with a Lion Passant and no duty mark as pre Dec 1784 although I have wondered in some cases. Certainly in London smallwares in the 1784 -1790 period very rarely have date letters , but I had not realised these may also omit the duty mark. Can Silver Lyon expand on , to me, a very important piece of information. Clive IP: Logged
Silver Lyon Posts: 363 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 02-09-2005 12:31 PM I have made an assumption that turns out to be wrong - many apologies!! It appears that Tongs WERE dutiable from December 1st.1784 but did not have date letters (on London made examples) until after May 28th 1790... Therefore the above pair were hallmarked before December 1st 1784! For Clive's sake I seem to recall that SHIRT BUCKLES (can you post a picture of one for our edification, please Clive? - maybe on a new thread?) were EXEMPT and may be found with maker's mark and lion only up to and beyond 1790! but that the remainder of buckles were to be dutiable and thus needed a kings head ?? IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 02-10-2005 02:10 PM Many thanks for the info. Generally London made tongs and buckles are very rarely seen with date letters before “q“ (1791/92). I believe this was to prevent makers from transposing marks onto much heavier items and thus avoiding most of the duty . Certainly the earliest London buckle with a dateletter recorded by me is “o” (1789/90), where the placing of the mark on the pitchfork prong would have made transposition almost impossible. This does not seem to apply to Sheffield and Birmingham marked items, which in the case of buckles, were almost invariably marked from the assay offices’ foundation in 1773. Probably as a rather aggrieved London was watching them like a hawk in hopes of closing them down if they put a foot wrong ! The exempt items under the Plate Act of 1738 continued to be exempt from duty after 1784, although were now dutiable if hallmarked. The Silver Plate Act of 1790 superceded much of the 1738 Act and replaced it with a different list of exempt items, including most items under 5 pennyweight. Buckles were excluded from the exclusion, except “shirt buckles “ – which were thus exempt. Gets confusing at this stage, especially as we have often no idea what some of the items specified in both Acts actually were. A state which continued until 1975 causing all sorts of problems for the assay offices. Shirt buckles are a case in point. I must confess not knowing what a shirt buckle was ! There are continual references to them thoughout the entire 18th century, and it appears that breast shirt buckle, breast buckle and shirt buckle were synonymous , at least in the 1750 –1770 period when evidence suggests they were substantial items. By 1790 the term appears to have been used for a much smaller buckle, a supposition borne out by their exclusion from duty. I suspect that the small series of buckles (around 22mm by 19mm) very commonly found from the 1790 –1825 period which are usually now classed as knee or breeches buckles may well be shirt buckles, especially as trousers had almost replaced breeches by 1795. Clive IP: Logged

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