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18th Century Handwriting/ Wills

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Author	Topic: 18th Century Handwriting/ Wills
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 03-06-2005 05:22 AM A very interesting tutorial on old handwriting has just been put on the Internet by the UK Public Records Office. Anyone who has had to struggle untaught through pre-1860 archive material will know how difficult (but informative ) contemporary documents are. The tutorial is at Palaeography: reading old handwriting 1500 - 1800 and I particularly commend the Introduction and Tutorial 2 ( a Will of 1722/23) which includes, wonder of wonders a crib of the alphabet. Incidentally the PRO has details of all wills proved in the PCC which you can search by name ,area date or "silversmith" etc. Copies of the wills can be downloaded but quality is variable and they charge for this! This is at DocumentsOnline I extracted all the details of goldsmiths, silversmiths Silver buckle makers etc wills for 1700 - 1830 and have a WORD table available in surname order for anyone would like it. Obviously does not include copies of the actual will but includes name, address and date of probate (usually very soon after date of death. It's a big up load, 261kb, for me on my slow system so please be prepared to wait as if I get a rush I'll send them all out together once a week! Three people are a rush!!!!! IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 03-06-2005 02:20 PM Great site - thanks! There is a point, however, that may cause confusion to some readers of hallmarks unfamiliar with the historical finer points of the English system. I extracted the following from the section on dating on the Quick Reference page: quote: 1752 was the first year in England to officially begin on 1 January. Until the Calendar Act of 1752, the year in England began officially on 25 March (Lady Day), and not 1 January (even though this was when New Year's Day was celebrated). Thus the year number did not change until 25 March, so taking 1558 as an example, the dates ran as follows: November 1558 December 1558 January 1558 February 1558 March 1 to 24 1558 March 25 1559 So if you see a document dated any time between January and 24 March before 1752, be aware that in modern terms, you need to add a year. In publications you may see this written as January 1750/51, the year as it was known at the time / the year as we know it now. This is also known as OS (Old Style) and NS (New Style). This might seem to some to explain why the date cycles on silver begin as they do, and to wonder if the use of what looks like the OS/NS notation one frequently sees with dating of hallmarks is technically correct. One might think one would have to know the month in which an object was marked, and it would apply only to those made January into Match (eg 1751/2). Those marked in all other months would use the NS notation only (eg 1751). Such an interpretation would be incorrect, however, since, before 1975, the "Goldsmith's year" began in May, the month of appointment of the Wardens, and an object bearing one mark could be made during either of two overlapping calendar years, and either method of notation can be used (and the two year notation is not OS/NS). In 1975, the cycle was changed to begin in January, and the two year notation could no longer be used. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 03-06-2005).] IP: Logged
agleopar Posts: 850 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 03-06-2005 05:01 PM Swarter, thanks... I'm not sure my memory serves but is the day in May the 19th, Saint Dunstans (the patron saint of silversmiths) birthday?? And thankyou Clive! [This message has been edited by agleopar (edited 03-06-2005).] IP: Logged
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11573 Registered: Apr 93	posted 03-06-2005 05:06 PM See prior post: Staint Dunstan & The Devil IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 03-06-2005 05:27 PM quote: I'm not sure my memory serves but is the day in May the 19th, Saint Dunstans (the patron saint of silversmiths) birthday?? According to Pickford, the date on which the letters were changed was switched from the 19th (St. Dunstan's Day) of May to the 29th after the Restoration. IP: Logged
tmockait Posts: 963 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 03-07-2005 01:51 PM This brings back memories of my dissertation research at the PRO in 1987, when I also began collecting silver spoons. For anyone who might be interested and adventurous, the PRO is open to the public, including foreigners. A passport is sufficient for obtaining a reader's ticket. Tom IP: Logged
salmoned Posts: 336 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 03-15-2005 06:58 PM In these records I see one "Isaac Fisher (1819)", which made me wonder if that might not be the brother of or one and the same as the "John Fisher" in Grimwade's mentioned by Mr Taylor. What sort of accuracy can we assume concerning the Goldsmiths' records? Is it possible the name "John" was presumed, perhaps being written as an initial only in the records? I'm trying to get a better grasp of exactly what the Goldsmiths' records may contain. IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 03-16-2005 02:47 PM Norally Goldsmiths Company records very good and usually Grimwade very accurate, despite the handwriting problem. The problem is often that the title "Goldsmith" covers anyone involved in not only gold and silver manufacture but also the retail silver ' gold, watch jewellery etc trade. The absence of John Fishers will in the PRO records of the PPC only indicate that no will was ever proved, i.e. legally found correct . If Mr Fisher left only moveable assets which did not need a legal assignment, and no awkward relatives, his heirs or heir did not need probate. He may not even have left a will - most wills at this date were made very soon before death,usually in actual immenent expectation. ! IP: Logged
tmockait Posts: 963 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 03-22-2005 05:39 AM Before the current PRO facility was built documents were kept at Chancery Lane, where some of them still may be housed. In any case, the PRO was not the only repository for such documents. County reocrd offices might be a good bet. Tom IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 03-22-2005 01:52 PM All the surviving Perogative Court of Canterbury proven wills are with the PRO. A very few wills were proved elsewhere but the Ecclesiastical Courts had almost total jurisdiction . However a will does not have to be proved to be valid and for the executors to have authority to act and deal with the estate. Even today if there is no duty to be paid, and no land or assets that require a grant of probate to transfer , you need not formaslly prove a will. In the eighteenth century I am quite sure many executors dealt directly with the estate unless they had qualms about other claimants or needed to transfer land or goverment stock. They had the same attitude to lawyers that we have today - an expense to avoid if possible. Many wills survive in county record offices simply for that reason, the executors kept them in the event of any dispute. IP: Logged
tmockait Posts: 963 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 03-22-2005 04:07 PM The PRO had two repositories: Chancery Lane and Kew Garden. The Medieval and some early modern records were kept at Chancery until the Kew facility was expanded. I believe everything was moved but thought there might still be some records at Chancery. By the way, Brits who died in one of the colonies could also have wills deposited there, even in the twentieth century. IP: Logged
bascall Posts: 1629 Registered: Nov 99	posted 01-10-2007 11:21 AM Here's another handwriting site that looks pretty good: How to Read 18th Century British-American Writing It didn't show up on a search of this site, but I might not have used all the best keywords. IP: Logged

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