Posts: 125
Registered: Oct 2003

posted 03-23-2005 01:24 PM            

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[08-0302]

Hi there,

I bought this tablespoon as being London around 1760. I looked up "J.L" and came up with John Lampfert. However on closer inspection of the marks, all four of them are identical - "J.L", no duty mark, lion, assay stamp, nothing. Hmmmm...Is it possible the spoon is by John Lampfert but he was duty dodging or is it possibly a provincial piece, with the makers mark being stamped 4 times. The stem is also very thick at about 1cm at its thickest. The other thing about it was the crest, which is a lion with "M + W" below it. Does this mean it was a love token or marriage spoon??

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Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

posted 03-23-2005 01:51 PM            

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The Crest would represent the original owner. The two initials in all probability are first and last initials of a single, subsequent owner.

The spoon could well be a duty dodger; the closing of the latter three punches implies an intent to render them illegible, in imitation of an earlier period when marks so placed were regularly obscured by after assay finishing of softer Britannia Standard silver that had been distorted by the marking process. Search this forum for "duty dodger," and you should find at least two other examples similar to yours, one put up by labarbedor, and one by myself.

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posted 03-23-2005 02:04 PM            

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I'm wondering if the maker may be John Luff - both marks are very similar, however the top of Lampfert's L just curls over, while Luff's L doubles back through the stem.

Interestingly enough, though, Lampfert appears to have avoided paying tax on a pair of cream ladles which are marked twice only with his initials. These can be seen at www.bexfield.co.uk

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posted 03-23-2005 02:15 PM            

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Thanks for the info. Had a look at the other posts and I see it's the same kind of thing. The mark does look like that of John Luff, although it lacks the crown on top of the stamp, although the top of the "L" does go back through the stem. So would the date then be 1740's / 1750's? Does this kind of dodging detract from the value of the piece? For me personally, it makes it a more interesting spoon - it didn't cost much and has become a nice addition to my collection, but I would like to know in case I was spending larger amounts of money on such items. (Hope I'm not breaking the guidelines here)

[This message has been edited by Scotia (edited 03-23-2005).]

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Registered: Oct 2004

posted 03-24-2005 10:21 AM            

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In the period c.1739-1781 (when the marks of London made pieces move to the 'top' of the spoon) is is surprisingly common to find pieces by established and (apparently) respectable spoon makers marked thus, makers mark four times - often just one popped into a set of six.

Apart from saving Tax, which wasn't so much of an issue in this period (there is NO DUTY between 1758 and 1784!), it also saved the necessity of paying to have the piece assayed.

If you are processing tens of thousands of spoons, introducing, say 5% of untried ones with just the maker's mark saves quite a bit of money.

I haven't done it but I do wonder whether these maker's mark four times pieces are indeed .925 sterling? - it would be an interesting exercise to test a bunch!
I think that this makes your spoon MORE interesting as it adds another angle to the story!

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