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tlineopen  British / Irish Sterling
tline3open  Unascribed Provincial Marks

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Author Topic:   Unascribed Provincial Marks
Scotia

Posts: 125
Registered: Oct 2003

iconnumber posted 05-26-2005 05:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scotia     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi there,

I recently bought these 2 tablespoons online. As I now own them, I was wondering if anyone had any information on the marks. I have decided to focus my collection on pieces with un-ascribed and unidentified marks as they are far more interesting to research. I have found a similar mark in Jackson's un-ascribed Scottish provincial marks section, marks found on a pepper caster circa 1816. The marks on my pieces are much the same without a date. The small mark to the far left looks like a letter from the greek alphabet. The makers mark is "F.D". They have large bowls and are quite heavy. Any information gratefully received.


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swarter
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Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 05-26-2005 12:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You have a tough one. I assume you have Turner's A Directory of Scottish Silversmiths and their Marks?

His alphabetical list contains over 1300 marks, unfortunately only 33 of which are illustrated. There is no FD listed (nor an ED if it could be that). Odd that he would have not have included the Jackson reference to this mark, unless he had reason to reject it. I used to think Jackson's Scottish section in the 3rd edition was pretty complete (it had most of the marks I have encountered), but now I see it is only a sampling, and far from comprehensive.

[This message has been edited by swarter (edited 05-26-2005).]

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adelapt

Posts: 418
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 05-26-2005 01:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for adelapt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Anglo-Indian, F Dormieux, early 19thC.

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Scotia

Posts: 125
Registered: Oct 2003

iconnumber posted 05-26-2005 02:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scotia     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi there,

Thanks for the help. I do have Mr Turner's book and I emailed him earlier today with a photograph of the mark and he identified it as Indian Colonial Silver, made by Francis Dormieux of Calcutta Serampore c.1818 in Wynyard Wilkinson's book on colonial silver. It's expensive (only 1000 copies) but I'll try and track it down. So adelapt was spot on. I bought them as being provincial and obviously Jackson's needs a good updating, but I am pleased I purchased them as they will make an interesting addition to my collection.

Note to Scott: I was wondering if you could move this post to the correct section now that it has been identified. Thanks. Well done adelapt

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swarter
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Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 05-26-2005 02:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So he did have a reason for rejecting it. You can never have too many books - glad it is identified.

This thread should be OK where it is now. It does not have to be moved, unless you want it somewhere else.

[This message has been edited by swarter (edited 05-26-2005).]

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Scotia

Posts: 125
Registered: Oct 2003

iconnumber posted 05-26-2005 02:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scotia     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry swarter, I didn't mean to undermine you there when I asked Scott, its just that Scott is usually the one that fixes my mistakes LOL.

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swarter
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Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 05-26-2005 03:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No problem. That happens because, as it should be, he has roving authority in all the forums, but moderators can only edit or move posts in their own.

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akgdc

Posts: 289
Registered: Sep 2001

iconnumber posted 05-28-2005 07:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for akgdc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting that one of the marks appears to be an opium poppy ... at that time (and to a lesser degree now) a staple of the economy in East Bengal. I think this actually calls for a new category in the Forums: "Drug-Related Pseudohallmarks."

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Scotia

Posts: 125
Registered: Oct 2003

iconnumber posted 05-28-2005 10:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scotia     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I bought them because I thought the flower was a thistle indicating Scottish silver, but you live and learn. The other mark is a tiger's head although I don't know what the small symbol is.

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swarter
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Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 05-28-2005 12:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This may help:

[gone from the internet - home.socal.rr.com/swpicfiles/fdindia.jpg]

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Scotia

Posts: 125
Registered: Oct 2003

iconnumber posted 05-28-2005 12:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scotia     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks swarter, that's better.

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davidm

Posts: 10
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 06-05-2005 02:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for davidm     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The mark on the far left described as similar to a greek alphabet letter by Scotia is the tally mark (no 4 in Wilkinson's book), thought to represent the Indian workman who finished the piece. The mark between the thistle and makers initials is a crude leopards head (upsidedown), a typical pseudo english mark used by silversmiths in both India and the Cape (South Africa). The thistle is quite common in Indian Colonial silver, it was also used by the Gordon's (Hugh and Robert) and Middleton & Co.

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