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Irish Butter Knife

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Author	Topic: Irish Butter Knife
TBC Posts: 134 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 07-29-2005 12:50 PM Hello again (as regular posters might have guessed, I've taken a few days holidays!). This time it is one of my own items that I've a question on. A few months' ago I purchased on a well-known internet auction site a Pistol-handled butter knife: The Marks are for Dublin, 1789. The letter "R" and the harp-crowned are particularly well-struck. Hibernia is very blurred. The maker's mark seems to be "TJ" who is, I guess, Thomas Johnston: My query. The "pistol" handle has another Harp-Crowned mark, but is not within the circle of the 1789 mark; rather as you will see from this next picture, it is similar to marks for pre-1786. There is also another more faded mark also on the handle: In puzzling over this, the though occurred that perhaps the handle is not the original handle? Some evidence for this is that there is a slight "gap" between handle and blade on one side. Any thoughts on the foregoing would be appreciated. Best wishes, Tom IP: Logged
TBC Posts: 134 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 08-19-2005 11:55 AM I am disappointed to have received no responses to this posting. Is it the case that nobody can assist me? Kind rgds, Tom TBC [This message has been edited by TBC (edited 08-19-2005).] IP: Logged
ahwt Posts: 2377 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 08-30-2005 07:14 PM Perhaps the handle was made earlier and just kept in inventory until joined with the blade. Knives may not have been big sellers in those days and the silversmith may have overproduced one year and simply kept the finished product until needed. Or the silversmith may have simply misplaced the handle. In any event it is a beautiful knife. [This message has been edited by ahwt (edited 08-30-2005).] IP: Logged
tmockait Posts: 963 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 08-30-2005 08:12 PM Tom, I have been traveling abroad, so I have not had time to look at this post. I think ahtw has the answer. The handle on the 1789 knife may also have broken and been fitted with an earlier handle. Before the modern era people recycled virtually everything and were not purests about everything matching (which I have found is an American hang up anyway!). Now speaking of frustration, does anyone have any more insights on the mysterious letter "B" on my bloody Dublin spoon?! Regards, Tom IP: Logged
TBC Posts: 134 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 09-01-2005 02:27 PM Thanks ahwt and Tom, Interesting hypothesis. Since the Harp Crowned without a shield was the mark up until 1786, it is, I suppost, a possibility. I agree that it is a nice item - in fact it has centre stage in my display, as I am very fond of it. I suppose it would be unusual if if were a modern day fake as one would hardly be likely to put an earlier handle on a pretty blade (or vica-versa). Many thanks for your comments - they are appreciated...and Tom, I will go back to my books as I got a few more recently! Give me a few days. Best wishes, Tom IP: Logged
tmockait Posts: 963 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 09-01-2005 05:25 PM Tom, I don't think fake is the right word, and I do think they might have "mixed and matched." Look at it this way: what if a smith were brought a beautiful handle with a damaged blade, and he happened to have in his shop a blade whose handle had been damaged beyond repair. Why not put them togther? People had to reuse, repair, and make do with everything. Tom IP: Logged
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11573 Registered: Apr 93	posted 09-03-2005 09:25 PM From the New Members' Forum quote: FWG posted 09-03-2005 11:14 AM[/URL] The complication, of course, is that such a marriage could have been made any time from 1789 to yesterday. Best clue as to when would be overall consistency in wear and patina. Looking at the close-up photo of the joint between handle and blade, from what I can see, it looks pretty consistent and I'd presume, lacking other evidence, that the marriage is an old one. A related query to follow.... IP: Logged
Silver Lyon Posts: 363 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 09-05-2005 02:26 PM I have an hypothesis to offes, but first, praytell, are the 'edges' of the blade equally as sharp or just one side sharp and the other blunt - and which edge is the sharpest? The one nearest the marks or the one furthermost from the marks? It isn't at all clear from the picture. IP: Logged
TBC Posts: 134 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 09-05-2005 03:05 PM Hi Silver Lyon. The knife is sharpest at the blade the furthest from the marks in the picture... Awaiting your hypothesis... Best wishes, tom IP: Logged
Silver Lyon Posts: 363 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 09-09-2005 01:25 PM What an interesting piece. Irish silver knife handles from the c.18th (and indeed at any time) are rare. I think that it is possible that your knife started off as a perfectly 'normal' steel bladed knife of the period, but had the blade changed when the habit of eating dessert arrived from France (mostly the fault of the chef Careme). As I am sure you are aware, it is not much fun eating fruit with a steel bladed knife because the acid in the fruit reacts with the steel and makes for a spoiled experience! BUT if you have a silver blade, happiness reigns and the fruit remains delicious. This piece is not a butter knife; surely a dessert knife and although the blade has clearly had some rather heavy recent polishing I can see no reason to doubt its authenticity. As I have said in other posts, the silversmiths in Dublin were very adept at adapting existing pieces to the prevalent fashions of the day. IP: Logged
TBC Posts: 134 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 09-09-2005 01:46 PM Silver Lyon, Very many thanks for your observations. I am especially fond of this knife. Can you explain to me what you mean by saying the blade has been heavily polished - do you mean on the flat or at the sides? As you can see from the photos, the marks are very clear - beautiful even - were they even deeper? Also, can you explain why you asked which way the marks were facing - to or against the blade? Again, many thanks for your observations. Kind Regards, Tom IP: Logged
Silver Lyon Posts: 363 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 09-10-2005 02:27 PM It had just occoured to me that the blade might have been turned thru' 180 degrees at some point in time - this has not happenned. I also just wondered if it could have been a palette knife (if it had a blade on both sides and was springy). The marks would have been even crisper - from your very good photograph it is possible to see a flatness in the texture of the silver which can only be caused by a polishing wheel - also the wear is all very even- see the surface of the Hibernia and harp and the lack of clarity of the maker's mark. Please understand that this in an observation and in no way a critism of your lovely piece. Patination could be a subject for a separate thread, but essentially it is necessary on potentially really valuabe pieces to inspect the surface with a binocular microscope and see the surface in 3d. Hope this helps! IP: Logged

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