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Author	Topic: Silver Hallmark
okeydokey Posts: 7 Registered: Apr 2005	posted 05-08-2005 10:49 AM [26-0430] Could you please tell me the date and place of this hallmark thank you 1st a lion then animals face then a P strange looking it has lines running through it then a ladies head face looking to the left followed by a war dept sign its like an arrow and the letters G A IP: Logged
nihontochicken Posts: 289 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-08-2005 12:27 PM It is always difficult to say based on a verbal description, as usually a photo is necessary to pin it down. However, your description seems to be pretty close to London, 1850-1851. Lion passant = sterling, animals face = uncrowned leopard = London, Gothic P = date letter = 1850/51, ladies head = Victoria duty paid stamp. The GA maker's mark is more ambiguous, possibly either George Adams or George Angell. I would guess the latter as some of his marks were more ornate, but they don't seem to quite match your description. Both used a nearly identical two-lobed circular field at some time . Again, a photo or a drawing might help here. What is the piece? IP: Logged
nihontochicken Posts: 289 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-11-2005 02:01 PM Note - Okeydokey wrote me directly since she can't post photos to the board. I'm forwarding them to the board as I believe it is an interesting piece that raises more questions than I can answer.) Here is the photo: My email reply to okeydokey: Hi! Nice spoon. It seems to be in the Old English pattern (need to see the top to confirm), a very late date of manufacture for this pattern, which was pretty much supplanted by the fiddle pattern in the first decade of the nineteenth century. Perhaps it is a replacement piece. The maker's mark could either be Geo. Adams or Angell, maybe Adams as his mark was registered in 1840, and Angell's in 1855 per Wyler, but Wyler has a lot of mistakes in it. The arrow is very strange. I have no idea what it represents. It doesn't appear to be an apprentice mark, too big and in the wrong place. The two dots near the maker's mark are likely an apprentice mark of the man who actually made the spoon under the master's supervision. The rest of the marks appear to be as I wrote in the forum. Hope this helps. Seems to be "Old English Revival Pattern", my personal term for spoons popular in the USA around 1860-70 or so, like Old English Pattern but more swell to the finial. I don't have a feeling here for Brit equivalents, if any. The arrow punch mark is interesting, as well as the embossed crown over fouled anchor on the topside; neither seem very typical of Brit spoons. Can anyone explain the significance of these figures? IP: Logged
Kimo Posts: 1652 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 05-11-2005 02:55 PM The arrow appears to be the "broad arrow" marking applied to all British military property since the mid-1800s (possibly earlier in some cases). This explanation is strengthened by the design on the anchor with the crown which would place this as a spoon that would have been owned by the Royal Navy. The RN and other branches of the British military (and most other countries' militaries) typically had sets of silver assigned to the officers' mess. The Admiralty would have sets assigned for many of their larger ships in addition to their land bases, ports and headquarters buildings. [This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 05-11-2005).] IP: Logged
nihontochicken Posts: 289 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-12-2005 08:08 PM Thank you, Kimo. The broad arrow mark and its significance was a new one on me. I appreciate your supplying this interesting fact! IP: Logged
okeydokey Posts: 7 Registered: Apr 2005	posted 05-13-2005 06:21 AM Thank you very much for all your help it seems I have a very interesting spoon, once again Thank you. IP: Logged
Kimo Posts: 1652 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 05-13-2005 12:17 PM The British "broad arrow" mark actually dates back to the 1300s or so and was used to mark anything that was owned by the King and it later turned into a marking for anything that was British government property. Mostly you see it on military property where pretty much anything that belonged to the Army or Navy has the mark somewhere on it, though you see it in other places as well such as it was the marking used on prisoners clothes in Britain up until the 1920s. Commonwealth countries also used to use it on all of their government and military owned property as well though they typically added a letter or letters to differentiate their broad arrow mark such as C for Canada or I for India, etc. You find broad arrow markings in two basic forms - one where the three lines are all about the same length and another where the center line is longer than the other two. The three same length lines seem to be more commonly used on items owned by the Admiralty while the version with the longer center line seems to be more commonly found on Army and RAF owned things - though this is not a hard a fast rule. Silver and silver plate with these markings is found on the market not only on flatware settings but also on a full range of serving pieces. One thing to think about with this material is there is a better than even chance that it may have been pinched at some point in its history rather than legitimately released to the market as the military is not in the business of selling silver to the public. [This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 05-13-2005).] IP: Logged
salmoned Posts: 336 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 05-13-2005 06:31 PM Kimo, although the military may not be in the business of selling silver to the public, what happens to a ship's silver when decommissioned? I imagine it is usually either sold or gifted, as in the USA. A new ship requires new silver, often purchased with funds from public contributions. IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-13-2005 07:35 PM The "broad arrow" is probably meant to represent the heraldic symbol known as a pheon, which is a spear or lance point. As a this was a weapon (or a part of one), the military association is a natural fit. A pheon IP: Logged

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