help with markings - SMP Silver Salon Forums

SM Publications

Silver Salon Forums - The premier site for discussing Silver.

SMP | Silver Salon Forums | SSF - Guidelines | SSF - FAQ | Silver Sales

In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate.

Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look.

How to Post Photos

Want to be a Moderator?

SMP Silver Salon Forums
tline

British / Irish Sterling
tline3

help with markings

profile | register | preferences | faq | search

SSFFriend: Email This Page to Someone!

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Author	Topic: help with markings
napalm Posts: 3 Registered: Mar 2005	posted 04-01-2005 04:49 AM Could anybody please help me identify these marks? This is from a candelabra I think circa 1719 - London Thanks for any help that you're able to give. IP: Logged
Argent47 Posts: 67 Registered: Nov 2004	posted 04-01-2005 11:13 AM Napalm (nice name) May I ask what the reason for your query is? Are you researching the object ? IP: Logged
napalm Posts: 3 Registered: Mar 2005	posted 04-01-2005 02:50 PM I'm actually researching it for a friend of mine. If you can help with the dates then that would be good, but I'm more interested in the other markings. I think that the dragon is standing on a cap of maintenance and i think that this signifies a Scottish connection. [This message has been edited by napalm (edited 04-01-2005).] IP: Logged
TBC Posts: 134 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 04-01-2005 03:29 PM Hi, My view is that these are London, 1739-40. From the photos, the Leopard's Head Crownedm Dare Letter and Lion Passant all seem to fit. I do not, accordingly, think the Marks are for 1719. As to the Maker's Mark, this is more difficult as the first letter is not legible (to me). The curvacious "G" looks liket the "G" in John Gamon (1739) which fits with my estimated date. However, I'm unhappy with this because although the "I" of the "J" is legible, the mark for John Gamon has a horizontal "}" at its bottom, whereas your mark seems clearly rounded. Perhaps a more knowledgeable member can add to this very amature diagnosis! Rgds, TBC IP: Logged
tmockait Posts: 963 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 04-01-2005 09:06 PM TBC, The date letter works, but the shape of the punch for the both the letter "d" and the lion passant don't seem to match those for 1739-40, at least in my source. I am puzzled. Tom [This message has been edited by tmockait (edited 04-01-2005).] IP: Logged
PhilO Posts: 166 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 04-02-2005 01:39 AM Tom, Jackson shows, in both the full and "pocket" editions that the shape of the date, town and lion passant punches changed during the 1739-1740 assay year. I think that the marks shown here match very well with the later versions. As to the maker, I looked through Jackson and found several candidates. John Gamon has already been mentioned; I also found James Gould and William Gould. The remaining bit of the first initial does not look like the J for Gamon or James Gould, but is a better match for William Gould, so I would have to go for him as the most probable maker (bearing in mind of course that even Jackson is not 100% comprehensive). Incidentally 1739 seems to have been an interesting year in the silver trade. Following the return to the sterling standard in 1719 many makers had two different marks, one for Britannia standard and one for sterling. Because of the confusion that this led to, an Act of Parliament of 1739 required all makers to destroy their previous marks and to introduce new ones bearing the initials of their first name and surname. Phil IP: Logged
tmockait Posts: 963 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 04-02-2005 01:52 AM Thanks for the interesting information. My source does not make that distinction, but it is quite limited. Tom IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 04-02-2005 04:40 AM The assay mark is the Lion Passant Guardant introduced afer the Plate Act of 1739 so the piece cannot be 1719. This Lion usually referred to as the "cootage loaf" or "bobbly bottom " lion. For easy date diagnostic purposes the London Lions Passant Guardant after the restoration of the sterling standard fall into three distinct series 1720 -1740 Rectangular (this shape used by provincial offices for a vey much longer span) 1740 - 1756 "Cottage loaf" or "bobbly bottom" 1756 -1822 Cut top cornered punch with a slight point from the middle of the bottom of punch . Usually refered to as "nippled bottom" After 1784 will have the Duty Paid mark of a George Head (in theory ) All these had individual subgroups - on which every one has their theories as to date. None are convincing, and many have been proved wrong.But the main groups are sound, except in the case of forgery or mark transposition. I've seen a Hester Bateman piece with the Cootage Loaf Mark, which close examination proved to have a fake HB mark - and a f*****g good punch it was too ! IP: Logged
salmoned Posts: 336 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 04-04-2005 02:11 PM Thanks Clive, your comments often include information of general interest beyond the specific topic and I find it very helpful in enlarging my knowledge base. IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 04-04-2005 06:44 PM Thanks salmoned ! Much appreciated . I think if enquiries ae made on specific items, a straight answer is good, but one that enables better diagnosis in future is better. I wish someone had told me some of the things I've painfully had to discover. I have found also that very general knowledge of the period is vital, especially as our mindset is often totally different to two centuries ago IP: Logged

All times are ET	next newest topic \| next oldest topic
Administrative Options: Close Topic \| Archive/Move \| Delete Topic
	Hop to:

Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a

^1. Public Silver Forums (open Free membership) - anyone with a valid e-mail address may register. Once you have received your Silver Salon Forum password, and then if you abide by the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines, you may start a thread or post a reply in the New Members' Forum. New Members who show a continued willingness to participate, to completely read and abide by the Guidelines will be allowed to post to the Member Public Forums.
Click here to Register for a Free password

^2. Private Silver Salon Forums (invitational or $ donation membership) - The Private Silver Salon Forums require registration and special authorization to view, search, start a thread or to post a reply. Special authorization can be obtained in one of several ways: by Invitation; Annual $ Donation; or via Special Limited Membership. For more details click here (under development).

^3. Administrative/Special Private Forums (special membership required) - These forums are reserved for special subjects or administrative discussion. These forums are not open to the public and require special authorization to view or post.

| Home | Order | The Guide to Evaluating Gold & Silver Objects | The Book of Silver