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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 British / Irish Sterling
 Unidentified Scottish Maker J L c1780-1800
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| Author | Topic: Unidentified Scottish Maker J L c1780-1800 |
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Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 09-05-2006 09:03 AM
  
I have two pairs of shoe buckles of the 1780 -1800 period with a Scots makers mark of JL on them. I am trying to identify this maker. Can anyone help please? I regret I cannot post a photo of the mark as I cannot get a good enough image but the JL is in capitals in a rectangular punch with all except the top left having slightly rounded corners. The "J" has a small serif to the top, and the "L" has a massive upwards serif to the bottom right and a long serif to the bottom left. One pair has a thistle mark and a cameo George Head (post 1786) and the other pair has no assay marks although another pair I have are undoubtedly by the same maker and bear a thistle and an incuse George (assayed Edinburgh 1784/86). Jackson gives an Aberdeen silversmith, John Leslie , as working about 1774 -1821 who may have had some of his wares marked in Edinburgh as was required by law, although most burghs ignored this and marked illegally. Jackson also records a very similar JL mark of an unknown Glasgow maker on spoons in the 1757-1780 period. Any help would be much appreciated. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 09-05-2006 02:17 PM
I believe this is a mark of John Leslie. Perhaps DB can confirm. How does it compare with yours? IP: Logged |
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Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 09-05-2006 02:40 PM
Many thanks for the image. It could be a match although the serif on the bottom right hand of the "L" on my example is massive - a triangle that goes half the height of the letter. Very distinctive. Although he may, even though a Scot, have had more than one punch. Your serif without being in any way personal, is small in comparison !!!! My mark is the normal size for buckles, again around 2mm by 3mm. Shape of the punch cartouche is about right, the left top being very square cut . Do you know anything about John Leslie ? Did he for example have any links to the Jacobite movement - although by 1784 it was a bit passe ! IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 09-05-2006 03:18 PM
John Leslie was apprenticed for a period of seven years to John Wildgoose of Aberdeen on 5 July 1763. He would have therefor begun work on his own about 1770. According to Ian Finlay's Scottish Gold and Silver Work, John Lesley's was one of three firms which dominated Aberdeen's silver trade in the last years of the Century; all three firms sent silver to Edinburgh for assay, but also marked and sold silver locally, "thus illegally avoiding avoiding the payment of the King's duty in order to keep their costs down." IP: Logged |
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DB Posts: 252 |
posted 09-05-2006 08:43 PM
I looked but have nothing by John Leslie, found two marks in my photo archive And scanned (but a bit crooked) the appropriate page of Jackson, but I guess you have this. IP: Logged |
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Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 09-06-2006 04:04 AM
Many thanks DB and Swarter. From DB's examples it looks as if my mark is another version of Leslie's mark as all his "L"s seem to have a rather exaggerated right serif, and slightly higher. Probably the one used in the buckle department. The practice of provincial silversmiths in Scotland of only having a proportion of their wares assayed is mirrored by English silver bucklemakers. Many pairs, especially after 1784 can be found with only one buckle with makers and assay marks, the other being totally unmarked, or bearing a makers mark or marks only. One imagines that they deliberately made more buckles than they assayed to avoid duty. In Scotland the avoidance of the assay is probably not only to save tax. Sending to Edinburgh was risky, slow and expensive. Also the Scots were not keen on paying tax to what many of them regarded as a foreign power. No change in the next two hundred years either. To cap it all the mark was that of the Hanoverian George! For reasons I cannot prove yet, I suspect that JL had Jacobite sympathies even as late as the 1780's. IP: Logged |
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r1251 Posts: 5 |
posted 09-14-2006 08:57 PM
While the mark certainly could be Aberdeen as already well discussed, there might be some chance of another possibility? I believe there may also be an unattributed Glasgow maker's mark of IL during the latter 18th century. I have at least one tablespoon with a reasonably similar IL mark and Glasgow town marks as I recall. If that maker continued on post 1784, then that IL would also be a possiblity. IP: Logged |
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Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 09-15-2006 03:16 AM
Thanks for your suggestion Yes, Jackson records an unknown spoonmaker using IL in the mid to late eighteenth century in Glasgow . The matter is further complicated by the fact that all the examples I have use a J rather than a I for the first name. Charlie Stott, who is regarded as one of the best authorities on Scottish provincial marks has commented to me "you have stumped me and can't recall this one, let alone find a reference but will put it about to some colleagues/friends and see if they can come up with anything" There has been a deafening silence since. One of the problems is that the Scots then as now ,do not like paying tax especially to the English . And human nature being unchanging, avoiding the assay fee and the trouble involved is equally understandable. We are dealing with bucklemakers, who by tradition tended to be at the crooked end of the scale anyhow. I was wrong in saying I have two pairs with this mark. One pair has the mark described above and no assay marks. Another pair ,virtually identical and undoubtedly by the same maker has the thistle and incuse George marks and no makers marks. I have good reason to believe both were in the same Glasgow house for many years . I also have ,from separate sources a single shoe buckle with a JL mark,thistle and cameo George and which has a thistle motif incorporated in the prongs - a strange thing indeed. And a stock buckle with JL and no other marks . Annoyingly the latter two buckles are packed in store at present and not available to me for some weeks so I cannot check to compare the marks - but both almost certainly the same maker. IP: Logged |
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DB Posts: 252 |
posted 09-15-2006 11:27 AM
When I scanned in the Aberdeen marks and sent it over, I thought it is evident that none of the marks were remotely similar with the description of your marks. Plus the Georgian head (a tax-mark regardless of the fact that we all do not like to pay taxes)would point to Glasgow. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 09-15-2006 04:28 PM
I totally agree that none of the Leslie marks are similar - IL is not the same as JL. But looking at the names of known Scots smiths I think we must look at anyone who could have used JL. John Leslie must be a suspect, epecially as Swarter has mentioned, he did have some silver assayed in Edinburgh during the period when all Scots silver should legally pay duty and get the receipt stamp put on by Edinburgh. I certainly feel that the unknown Glasgow spoonmaker is also a strong candidate. To confuse matter further a Dundee smith WS also produced this pattern of buckle, complete with pot of lillies mark ! IP: Logged |
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Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 10-10-2006 09:18 AM
An impression of the mark, plus a view of one buckle IP: Logged |
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Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 10-23-2007 04:41 PM
The evidence tends now to support the case for John Leslie. One good example of this mark is on an odd knee buckle I acquired some time ago. Another example, which apart from being slightly more worn, could be the other one of the pair, has recently appeared, firmly attributed by someone I feel is reliable, to John Leslie of Aberdeen. Notice I say reliable, not infallible ! IP: Logged |
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