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In this Forum we discuss the silver of the United Kingdom, as well as British Colonial silver and Old Sheffield Plate. Past British - Irish Sterling topics/threads worth a look. |
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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 British / Irish Sterling
 Epergne and dish cross
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| Author | Topic: Epergne and dish cross |
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ahwt Posts: 2377 |
posted 08-26-2007 04:29 PM
  
I recently saw an English epergne with a date mark of 1771-2 and city mark of London that had a center silver bowl and four detachable branches holding silver bowls. The unusual feature, at least for me, was that the center was also detachable and when withdrawn the remainder could function as a dish cross. What appeared to be a heater was in the center of the dish cross and the dish cross had arms that were adjustable in length. The opposed end of the feet were designed to hold plates of various sizes as the arms moved in or out. The branches could be withdrawn if desired, but this would not affect the functioning as a dish cross. None of the books that I have show such a combination and I wonder if anyone else has seen this combination. Certainly this combination gave more versatility to the epergne as it could be used for hot dishes. When used in this manner I would expect that it was placed on a side table rather than in the center of the dining table. IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2377 |
posted 09-24-2007 02:51 PM
   Above is the epergne described in the entry above. This may be a fairly rare form, but the combination of a dish cross with a traditional epergne does have some advantages. The heater is located in the center of the cross and does not appear to be removable. IP: Logged |
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DB Posts: 252 |
posted 09-24-2007 05:30 PM
An epergne holds mostly sweetmeats (candies) and fruit, so what function would a heater have - are the baskets marked with the same marks as the dish-cross, how is the dish-cross marked - only the heater or also on every foot and extension device?? The whole thing seems like a concoction to me. If the parts are all marked, I would have a silversmith take this apart again and have a proper dishcross and usable baskets. Of course an epergne is in a completely different price category than a dishcross and baskets. I wished I would have better news. IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2377 |
posted 09-24-2007 10:53 PM
I do not know what the English silversmith had in his mind. The arms with baskets and the center basket are all removable and when removed what is left is a dish cross. It is reasonable to assume that the heater would only be used in this configuration. Of course when used in this manner the baskets and arms would be of no use. I saw this epergne while on a trip and wondered if anyone else had ever seen anything like it. I do not recall ever seeing a silver object that was in effect changeable, actually convertible, into performing two different functions. It does appear that it started its life in this manner and perhaps was the whim of either the silversmith or one of his clients. IP: Logged |
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DB Posts: 252 |
posted 09-25-2007 07:52 AM
Well, as long as it is(was) his whim and not yours, everything is A-OK. IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 09-25-2007 08:19 AM
Is it possible that it was always meant to function only as a epergne but with an adjustable base so it might be able to take up more or less room on a table depending on the rest of the setting? IP: Logged |
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FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 09-25-2007 09:58 AM
Personally, I think it's a fascinating piece. The only other multitasking I can think of having seen is one or two candelabra that, in addition to the more common removable parts to change the height or number of candles, had arms with dishes to convert to an epergne. Years since I saw one, though, and I don't remember even whether silver or plated, let alone origin. Am I understanding correctly the working: the central dish can be removed alone from the dish supports, and each of the side bowls can also be removed? If so, perhaps the central bowl at least could also be used separately, albeit with a rather unusual base? I can't quite make out the maker's mark (OK, fine, sponsor's mark for those who like to pick nits) - were you able to identify it? The crest looks somehow familiar, but nothing specific is coming to me, just a vague sense of a possible French connection. Perhaps one of our fellows with heraldry references can ID it.... [This message has been edited by FWG (edited 09-25-2007).] IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2377 |
posted 09-25-2007 10:33 AM
The center basket arms simply lift out of the innermost extensions of the feet of the dish cross legs (just above the slide). When the center basket is removed the legs are free to slide so as to accommodate dishes of various diameters. The center basket would sit upright on a table when removed, but I can not imagine any separate use for it in this configuration. I think is would be put away until needed for use in the epergne configuration. The surrounding baskets lift out of another attachment point on the top of the slides in a fashion similar to a standard epergne. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11573 |
posted 09-25-2007 10:47 AM
Perhaps Fondue? The center as the melting pot and the outer arms basket for the forkable treats?  IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 09-25-2007 02:10 PM
Another example of multiple use is the 18th Century covered sugar bowl in which the lid could be inverted and used as a dish or small bowl. IP: Logged |
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DB Posts: 252 |
posted 09-25-2007 04:13 PM
There are many multi-purpose pieces in English silver,(candlesticks turn into candelabra, etc.etc.) and center pieces with removeable parts do exist - for instance to add candlestick-arms, or only have baskets, etc. - if we would know how the piece/pieces in question are hallmarked, then one could make more meaningful remarks how this piece came together. Please do see Waldron, The Price guide to antique silver, page 207 ff. there is not a single eperne where a dish-cross would have formed the base. IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2377 |
posted 09-25-2007 04:54 PM
I will try to find out what markings, if any, are on the remaining parts of the epergne. As I recall the photos I took were from the center basket. It was 101 degrees in the shade the day I was there and I had just enough energy to take a few pictures and no energy left for thinking. Here a better image of the sponsor's mark. IP: Logged |
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DB Posts: 252 |
posted 09-25-2007 06:51 PM
London 1771, TL in that kind of surround is probably Grimwade No.3845, and is an unregistered, unidentified mark - found by Mr. Grimwade on teacaddies of 1770/71. Now we need to know the other marks.......to get to the bottom of this. IP: Logged |
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blakstone Posts: 493 |
posted 09-26-2007 02:14 PM
This doesn't help identify the use or maker in any way, but I thought it was interesting. Since the arms are so well-done and properly tinctured, they are traceable. The arms appear to be "quarterly gules and or, a cross flory argent in the first", with a baronet's badge in the center; these are the arms of the Middleton baronetcy, an English peerage which existed from from 1662 to 1999, seated at Belsay Castle, Belsay, Northumberland. The baronet in 1771 was Sir William Middleton, 5th Bt. (1738-1795, bt. 1768), so I suspect he was the original owner. [This message has been edited by blakstone (edited 09-26-2007).] IP: Logged |
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