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18C Knives?

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Author	Topic: 18C Knives?
Paul Lemieux Posts: 1800 Registered: Apr 2000	posted 03-10-2008 05:14 PM Here is a pair of knives that I think are early to mid 18C. They are only marked STERLING in side of a box. I couldn't find this mark in Tardy, but there were a couple similar ones listed for 18C Ireland and England. There are no maker's marks on the handles, and no cutler's marks on the blades. Does anybody have any ideas? IP: Logged
doc Posts: 730 Registered: Jul 2003	posted 04-01-2008 07:08 PM I am thinking Irish. I have seen a similar design somewhere; I will have to dig into the books. They are lovely. IP: Logged
bascall Posts: 1629 Registered: Nov 99	posted 04-01-2008 08:03 PM That sterling mark has been variously ascribed to Cork and Chester as well as Liverpool according to one my references. IP: Logged
Silver Lyon Posts: 363 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 04-14-2008 03:01 PM Not Irish - but SHEFFIELD before the town recieved its assay office. It would be nice to see the maker's mark. The silver will be very thin!! IP: Logged
Paul Lemieux Posts: 1800 Registered: Apr 2000	posted 04-14-2008 07:55 PM Silver Lyon, thanks for the great info. So I guess that means they were made in Sheffield pre-1773. Which reference did you use? My selection of English mark references is pitiful... You are spot-on about the silver--it is extremely thin. You can kind of see that there are numerous small dents and scratches all over the place, but the pitch inside has enabled these flimsy silver handles to survive fairly well over the course of a quarter-millennium. Old English silver isn't really my bag, but these are probably the 2nd-oldest pieces of flatware I own and it's just nice to have something from so long ago. Unfortunately, there is no maker's mark on these knives. The blades are unsigned as well. Do the blades look original? Edited to add: I just looked in Pickford's [u]Silver Flatware[/u]. On p50 a nearly identical blade form on a less ornate pistol handle is identified as London c. 1720. I would say my knives are pistol shaped, with a shell and foliate motif. I would guess that if this blade was the London style in c1720, Sheffield examples of the same shape would be slightly later examples of the trend. Does a date of say c1740-1760 sound reasonable for my knives? [This message has been edited by Paul Lemieux (edited 04-14-2008).] IP: Logged
jersey Posts: 1203 Registered: Feb 2005	posted 04-14-2008 08:07 PM Hello Paul! Just an observation (in my mind's eye), & I grant you they are not 20/20. That said, they look like crying fish......could it be part of a fish service or am I a fish out of water........? Jersey IP: Logged
Paul Lemieux Posts: 1800 Registered: Apr 2000	posted 04-14-2008 08:16 PM They are too large to be fish knives as they are over 11" long, which I forgot to mention in my other posts. So I think they are dinner knives. My pictures don't really show this, but there is a shell design at the end of the handle as well as a little bit of foliage surrounding that raised circular shape. IP: Logged
jersey Posts: 1203 Registered: Feb 2005	posted 04-14-2008 09:21 PM Paul! I am tired, but I knew a Suzie that sold sea shells at the sea shore! Hence, a knife for cutting big fish. It's gotta be Income Tax day that has me nutty! Hope you don't mind my off the wall response today. Enjoy the day & stay safe! Jersey IP: Logged
FWG Posts: 845 Registered: Aug 2005	posted 04-15-2008 11:21 AM Yes, I'd say the blades are original - if not they achieved a perfect match in style. Very nice! IP: Logged
adelapt Posts: 418 Registered: May 2003	posted 04-17-2008 01:19 AM As I understand it, there is the possibility that even after the Sheffield Assay Office opened, there was a period when knife handles could escape hallmarking. This is due to their typically thin shell-like construction, that kept the weight below the level at which hallmarking became mandatory. The filling of them when assembled gave the required rigidity. From memory, somewhere about 1791 was when the exemption was removed. IP: Logged
bascall Posts: 1629 Registered: Nov 99	posted 04-20-2008 06:08 PM The following is from "Small Antique Silverware" by G Bernard Hughes, 1957: A statute of 1790 so amended the law of assaying silver that among very small pieces weighing less than five pennyweights hall-marking was compulsory on only a few specified articles. Knife and fork hafts were not specified and were, therefore, optionally exempt from hall-marking. Silver handles made towards the end of the eighteenth century and lacking a hall-mark are often marked , the only other device being the makers mark. No duty was paid on such silver. These handles were usually made in Sheffield, and from about 1820 this type was used on fish slices and forks to the virtual exclusion of all other silver handles. IP: Logged
jersey Posts: 1203 Registered: Feb 2005	posted 04-20-2008 06:40 PM Bascall! Thank you, from me & the fishes! Jersey IP: Logged
bascall Posts: 1629 Registered: Nov 99	posted 04-20-2008 06:41 PM Here's a summarized quote from "Old Silver" by Edward Wenham, 1964: Chester silver before 1686 often bears only the makers mark and sometimes . This sterling mark is in a distinctive cartouche. A few other intersting comments that Edward Winham makes about marks in this book are that in the seventeenth and eighteenth century Cork silver was occasionally marked DOLLAR (this may have already come up in another thread), toward the end of the seventeenth century the Cork town mark was accompanied by the makers mark punched two or three times, and about 1720 the Cork town mark was discontinued and replaced by the word sterling which is found STERLING STARLING, STIRLING, STER, STERLG and other abbreviated forms. IP: Logged

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