posted 08-09-2008 04:55 PM            

It's on what I think is an English neck stock or cravat buckle of around 1730.

Usually stock buckles were post 1740 and attached at the back of the neck to secure the cravat or stock. They were one piece and comprised a frame and a studded multi pronged chape. Some early ones however were two part clasps like this and I believe were secured at the front and were often military, or derived from the military.

This pair I think may be have started out as two separate clasps, and the pair got mixed up - as the decoration is slightly different on each.

I have pairs of socks that have done the same.

Same maker, same pattern and marks however.

The Lion Passant Guardant appears to be that of London 1720 -1740 and the decoration supports that dating.

However I can find no silversmith, either London or provincial whose mark seems to fit.

Could it be a colonial psuedo mark?

posted 08-09-2008 07:27 PM            

Thank you.

posted 08-10-2008 06:46 PM            

Originally when I bid for this item on *Bay I thought it would be a 1770-1780 piece of somewhat archaic form, of very thin metal and brightcut. Most surving clasps come from the 1790's. The photo provided by the vendor showed it closed and hence the middle edge of the bottom half was not visible.

When I received it , I found it to be of thick silver, probably had raised rather than made of pre rolled silver and either cast and chased, or chaste extremely well. Decoration was slightly asymmetric and the previously concealed edge proved have the typical diamond lozenge with dots often found in the 1730's. The stippling of the background is also a feature of the buckles of this period

Hence my acceptance of the Lion Passant as probably the London 1720 -1740 punch.

posted 08-10-2008 07:51 PM            

The stock is a long piece of cloth with three button holes at each end. Each of the two halves of the clasp has it's three studs inserted into these holes - one each end of the stock . Stock then placed around neck and the two half clasps joined together.

One half (the top one in the photo) has a hook at the bottom edge which engages one of the three slots in the other - which allows a certain amount of adjustment - like a bra strap has one hook but three eyes. Or so I seem to recall !

posted 08-10-2008 08:01 PM            

Am looking for my other marks book.

In the meantime, is not that lion called a lion passant guardant?

posted 09-09-2008 02:21 PM            

Pre 1740 buckles are so scarce that I was really out of my depth on this speciment, and although fairly confident that I had attributed it to date , I sought the advice of one of the very few people I regard as real silver experts on Georgian British Isles silver.

He confirmed in his opinion 1730 -1740, London and not psuedo marks. And wanted to buy it ! I will not embarress by giving his name as he is very politically correct in these matters.

Sometimes one cannot believe your own judgement when something as rare as this comes into your custody .

But, come on folks, who is the maker!

posted 09-12-2008 03:00 AM            

It's a lead any-how. A "Toyman" certainly retailed or made buckles, so a Jeweler and Toyman undoubtedly was in the trade.

In the wonderfully haphazard world of the 1730's regulation was a desirable, but not necessarily consistent feature. From the number of unknown marks in the last half of the eighteenth century we all mutter " lost register" but there are many makers marks seen on pieces undoubtedly from before 1740 which are not recorded.

posted 09-13-2008 02:49 PM            

Marriages 1700
Wolverhampton
County: Staffordshire
Country: England
30 Oct 1700 Robert Hum, bucklemaker & Mary Tymmins both this towne.

Staffordshire: West Bromwich - Parish Registers, 1608-1658
1653. Baptisms. Vol. 2.

Staffordshire: Bilston - Parish Registers, 1684-1746
Baptism
County: Staffordshire
Country: England
21 Nov 1724/5 Robert, s. of Edwd. Baggley, jun., Bucklemaker

1653. Baptisms. Vol. 2.
Anno Domini, 1651.
County: Staffordshire
Country: England
14 Dec 1656 Anne, d. of Robert & Anne Marsh, Bucklemaker.

Staffordshire: Bilston - Parish Registers, 1684-1746
Baptisms.
County: Staffordshire
Country: England
25 Sep 1723 Robert, s. of Robt. Foxall, Bucklemaker. private Baptm.

Staffordshire: Bilston - Parish Registers, 1684-1746
Baptisms.
County: Staffordshire
Country: England
29 Oct 1724 Robert, s. of Robt. Mosse, Bucklemaker.

Baptisms and Marriages at St. George's Chapel, Mayfair
Thomas Simes of St James Clerkenwell, bucklemaker 28 Sep 1729

posted 09-13-2008 04:07 PM            

Nearly all of these are from the "Black Country", the area around Birmingham which was the centre of the non-silver bucklemaking trade in the late 17th and 18th centuries.

Thomas Simes is a name unknown to me, and from the address of the marriage he was a man of substance. Clerkenwell is traditional City but St Georges, Mayfair is upmarket. Could well be a journeyman silver bucklemaker and although no recorded mark he could have a mark in the lost 1740 -56 Register.

Perhaps even the maker of the buckle shown below. Unrecorded maker TS, date of assay 1740 -1756. Probable date c 1740 -1750

posted 09-13-2008 06:23 PM            

I am still looking for my book. As it turns out it is Jacksons, & you have gotten responses from members who have checked that source out.

Just a question I have. Forgive me, & given the fact that I have little to no knowledge of silver marks outside of the USA, but I am learning though, thanks to the Forum.

I had a crazy thought. I know you said you had gotten advice from someone saying it was London etc, but is it possible the maker could be from Ireland or Scotland?

Maybe our member agphile can help. He is from your area.

Let us know when you have the answer........it's making me nuts, (more than usual)!

Have a great day.

posted 09-13-2008 07:39 PM            

Thanks for the kind suggestion that I might help but I fear that Clive has a better grasp of marks than I do - and probably a better reference library as I don't have much on Irish, Scottish or provincial makers (apart from Chester and the West Country). As reported earlier, I have failed to come up with anybody having the right initials and known to have been working at the right date. Sorry to prove something of a broken reed!

posted 09-13-2008 08:43 PM            

BTW My good friends have now forever crossed the pond to Cambridge. I miss them already. I have asked them to look for "stuff" for me, specifically Chawner/Adams pattern Canova.

Jersey

posted 09-14-2008 05:15 AM            

This is for you!

The stock clasp marked RS has a Lion Passant Guardant on it - in the squat rectangular London form used in between 1720 and 174O. There was another similar form one also used by London 1681 - 1697 and the provincial offices also had outbreaks of this type , usually slightly broader, throughout the 18th century. It was also a good standby for contemporary fakers and unscrupulous 19th century German makers ! Coupled with wear , this area tends to be a minefield for the unwary. Certainly the piece is English, not Scots or Irish, or proports to be so. Which was why, given it's rarity ,I needed another, more expert opinion.

During the Britannia period 1697 -1720 the first two letters of the family name were officially to be used. But as usual not every one obeyed the rules ! And the Lion Passant was, in theory not used. Incidentally a more correct name should be "The Britannia ONLY period" - you can still use the Britannia standard even now as an option -although very few people do.

The TS buckle has London Lion Passant (all these Lions were Guardant of course) of the 1740 -1756 form. This, other than style is the only easy method of dating small waree without date letters.

With your Jacksons -check out the punch forms for London in between 1720 and 1822.
You will soon learn how to date to four distinct periods 1720-1740 (squat rectangle - often called the "skinny lion " ), 1740 -1756 (a side indented and bottom cusped mark usually called "cottage loaf", 1756 - 1822 (the one with a nipple on the bottom-usually called "pointed bottom" . The latter comes with or without a duty mark of a George Head - those with a George Head being post 1785.

posted 09-14-2008 09:07 AM            

All English silver has 5 marks.

Except when they have 4.
Or 3
Or 2
Or 1
Or None.

Otherwise dentists would go out of business

One year they could have 6!

posted 09-14-2008 04:43 PM            

I did not consider your response as a "lecture", that to me means I have been bad & in need of a talking to! I welcome your response a a new & valuable learning lesson, from a knowledgeable teacher. I Thank you kind sir!

My Jackson book alas is still missing, perhaps hiding in the dark caverns of my many bookcases, (I hope). Or it has been lent out to someone I can't recall.

Maybe I can invoke the help one of my favorite saints to aid in your search for a maker since I'm not doing well on my own...........(Kidding).

Do the names of Robert Swanson or Robert Sallam ring any bells?

Any chance of contacting a Museum or your Roadshow people in England?

posted 09-14-2008 06:27 PM            

I once had a guest on our narrow boat who I proceeded to instruct at great lengths on the basic points of seamanship in a tideway.

Only to find out later he was a retired supertanker master and had more sea days than I had hours !

There are no recorded marks in Grimwade for Robert Swanson which match. He may have an unrecorded one - or Grimwade may have missed one - and certainly as smallworker in the 1730's and 1740's his dates fit. I'll check with Goldsmiths Hall along with another suspect I've found. (You may note I take it all very personally - I regard all unidentified marks as an affront!)

Robert Sallam is probably out of the time frame - he was apprenticed in 1736 and was unlikely to have even an unregistered mark by 1741 which is latest date this buckle , in theory could be assay marked.

posted 09-16-2008 02:54 AM            

Makers mark
Lion Passant
Town Mark
Date letter
and the Duty mark struck twice.

Like the junior school examination where the question "Name 6 things that have Milk in them " was answered by " Cheese , Butter, Yoghurt and....er ... 3 cows" !

There's one year (or period of less than 12 months) when there could be, legally and necessarily, 6 entirely different marks on a piece of silver.

posted 09-16-2008 07:19 AM            

It's a rare one, especially as by definition the articles bearing it were exported from England.