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British / Irish Sterling Georgian Silversmiths Private Lives Scandals ?
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Author | Topic: Georgian Silversmiths Private Lives Scandals ? |
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 10-28-2008 04:28 AM
Georgian Silversmiths – Scandals ? Having recently embarked on investigating the wills of some of the silver bucklemakers it has been most interesting to find that some may not have been quite as conventional as we imagine in their private lives. Denis Langton –Smallworker and known bucklemaker However Denis apparently left a widow, Hannah Langton , who unsuccessfully contested the will in 1739. I know nothing of Mary except that she petitioned (probably as executrix of Dennis ) for the bankruptcy of Thomas Mouldon, another silversmith , in July 1739. Samuel Moulton - Bucklemaker Thomas Hatton Bucklemaker ..................................... Any comments from those without posting rights could be sent to my Email which is …..enquiries(at)taylorswaterways.co.uk – please substitute @ for (at) of course. As the NA charge £3.50 for a PDF file copy of the will I’ve not got many actual will copies – but they can solve a lot of problems. And cause a few more ! [This message has been edited by Clive E Taylor (edited 10-28-2008).] IP: Logged |
FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 10-28-2008 10:03 AM
At the time, 'reputed' was typically used as equivalent to 'respected' - so no issues with Hatton. I'd say the spinster Frith could be equally well either a "kept woman" or someone Moulton simply took in to care for, and with no evidence to the contrary I'd give him the benefit. Langton could be innocent as well; it would be interesting to see the court records from the contestation because testimony would probably illuminate that. Generations past - and around the world - certainly engaged in all the kinds of behavior that today are found scandalous by "proper" society, but what was considered improper has varied greatly - and of course still does. And of course members of said "proper" society are not infrequently great indulgers in "improper" behaviors, often at the same time they condemn them for others. But these cases don't scream out to me, although Langton would make me curious. IP: Logged |
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 10-28-2008 02:44 PM
Agreed on the 18th Century meaning of "Reputed" as the opposite of "Disreputable" in ordinary English. But why should both a wife and a daughter have a different family name even if they were respectable! I suspect that the legal profession used the word for another purpose. Similarly I have found that unrelated ladies in wills usually had a suitable description to avoid any hint of impropriety - hence my query re Mr Moulton because of the absence of same . I personally make no moral judgement not my thing - only interest in the culture. And that is difficult - their language useage is totally different and many words are subtly different as is the mindset. IP: Logged |
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 12-03-2009 06:16 PM
Mary Murphy was almost certainly his common law wife . As a widow I suspect her late husband left provision for her in his will for her life only , or until she remarried . She and Thomas Hatton probably decided that her income was of more use than a marriage certificate ! Mrs Murphy was almost certainly the Mary Hatton who entered a mark as smallworker at Shrift (Frith) Street Soho (Grimwade page 751), Thomas Hattons address . The timing shows how fast everything worked in the 18th century. Hatton made his will on 6th March 1764, probably on his deathbed as he died the next day. The will was proved on on the 17th March and Mary entered her mark on the 19th March. I've never seen her mark. IP: Logged |
agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 12-03-2009 06:48 PM
That all seems to make sense. Nice to have found the extra info that ties it together. IP: Logged |
Polly Posts: 1971 |
posted 12-03-2009 07:47 PM
That is fascinating! IP: Logged |
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 12-04-2009 10:25 AM
Some amazing things are coming from Wills. One somewhat obscure London bucklemaker Francis Daniell left a will instructing his wife what to do with his young daughter in the event of his death. " Take her to your aunt Martha Ingram, widow of Southam" Now I live in Napton, in Warwickshire in the English Midlands, miles fom London. Southam is two miles away from me. We have traced Martha, who died in 1778 and is buried not three miles from me. And guess what - she was born Martha Ingram ! Obviouly the sister of Daniell. Note that in 18th century useage the words "father","brother" , "aunt" etc applied to in lwas as well as blood relatives. And one equally obscure will has revealed that one famous bucklemaker got his start by marrying his ex- masters niece. The will states that he will inherit the masters business if he marries this lady . Which he did, a few days before the master died ! As the will was dated some two years earlier the impeding death of his master seemed to make his mind up suddenly. Or perhaps the they coould not afford to marry until then. Cannnot give full details as I'm supposed to be writing an article on the whole story. IP: Logged |
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 12-06-2009 07:30 AM
The above post by myself will make more sense if I'd got the names right ! Martha Ingram was born Martha Daniell, and was the sister of Francis Daniell . Sorry IP: Logged |
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 12-27-2009 05:44 PM
Breaking News . I have located details of the action brought by Dennis Landton's widow against the mysterious Mary Mordaunt. The trial is recorded at the National Archives on PROB 18/51/57 and a photo copy of the details should soon be with me. Soon being a very relative turn at the NA. He was involved in 1721 in the financing of a ship doing the triangular run, i.e out to Africa with goods to buy slaves, ransporting them to Virginia or Barbados and returning with a cargo, probably sugar or tobacco to England. Also concerned in other dubious fiscal affairs as reported below . Watch this space in 2010 ! IP: Logged |
Polly Posts: 1971 |
posted 12-27-2009 08:26 PM
Exciting doings! Can't wait for more! IP: Logged |
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 01-09-2010 02:04 PM
I must apologise for my accusation of tardiness to the National Archives - the material, immaculately copied and well packaged arrived today. It's very legal, hard to understand but , Polly will be delighted to known, is a story of love, lust and a woman betrayed! Basically Langdon left two wills, one of 1724 leaving everything to his "Loving and indulging Wife Hannah Langton " and a later will of 1738 leaving everything to Mary Mordaunt. Hannah Langton claims that Dennis Langton and Mary Mordaunt There's a lot more which I will post if it proves of interest. Or of a grossly sensational nature. Also I'm still not sure if Mary Mordaunt is indentifiable as the Countess of Pembroke who died in 1759.
IP: Logged |
Polly Posts: 1971 |
posted 01-11-2010 03:10 PM
Scandal! I hope the children were provided for, both the legitimate ones and the base-born bastards. IP: Logged |
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 01-12-2010 11:54 AM
We shall probably never know. Certainly Mary (who got the estate) would presumably look after her children and the fact that Hannah did not mention any children in her requests to witnesses implies she had none. The quote I give accusing Dennis of living with Mary etc seems to be part of a ploy to get sympathy as it is in no way relevent to her legal case . My interpretation is that if she had been abandoned, or had children still in her care she would have mentioned it ! The problem with the National Archives PCC files system is that everything is not filed as we would think normal. I expected to find all the records of the court case Langton v Mordant (Mordaunt) in one file. Not so ! Plaintiffs pleas are in PROB 18 series, which also contains the questions asked of witnesses by the plaintiff. PROB 23, 24 and 25 contain the depositions (witness statement in court), answers to the plaintiffs pleas, and other depositions. PROB 28 contains much the same as above but taken by commisioners away from the court. (c) The files were weeded out years ago and the others destroyed. IP: Logged |
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 03-04-2010 06:38 PM
Another interesting relationship case has come up due to research into silversmiths wills and lady silversmiths. Grimwade gives very brief details of an Alexperry PARKES – just stating that there is no record of apprenticeship or freedom and only one mark entered , as a smallworker on 20 June 1765 at Old Street Square . His full name was actually Alexander Perry PARKES and he died, described in the press as a Silver Bucklemaker, on the 7th July 1765. He appears prior to that date in Goldsmiths Hall records as being fined for sub-standard silver buckles, so he may well have marks in the lost register His will, dated 5th July 1765, indicated that he was “weak in Body” , and left his entire estate to an Ann Mills of Old Street Square – unusually giving no description of her relationship or status. She obtained probate as Executrix on 10th July 1765 , when she was described as a Spinster - so not a married or widowed daughter. Grimwade also gives details of a smallworker mark entered 13 July 1765 of Anne PEAREE at Old Street Square. - a very illiterate and altered signature according to Grimwade who speculates that the surname was Perry . Grimwade does not link the two entries but the date agrees well with the probate of Alexander Perry Parkes as does the address . This seems to me to be almost certainly the Ann mentioned in the will above. She was probably the Anne Parkes also fined for substandard buckles in the 1763-1769 period. IP: Logged |
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